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Quarterbacks win championships

Sean Payton's Vicodin

By Sean Payton's Vicodin,
in Carolina Panthers

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

Posted
Posted
Just now, CRA said:

there isn't much difference between a 1 and 10 pick.  It's just team preference at the top who goes at the very top. 

Cam was the #1 overall.  If we hadn't occupied the spot he likely doesn't go #1 overall.  He wasn't viewed as a consensus #1. 

Really?  You must not spend much time on the board anymore.  I mean, the Huddle will be calling for Tepper's, Fitterer and Reich's collective heads if we don't move up for a QB this draft as we sit at #9.  Entire threads have been dedicated to moving up for a QB because it's a MUST.

In theory I agree there's not much of a difference in the top 10 unless there's a generational QB at the top of the board.  This draft there is not.  That is not stopping this forum from demanding a trade up though.

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SCO96 Veteran

SCO96

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19 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

You need look no further than the past 20 or so super bowls.  All but a few were won by a top tier QB.  Yes, other pieces are needed, but you've gotta have a QB.  It is just so incredibly rare for a good team to mask bad QB play, and that will almost always end up getting exposed when you go up against the better teams in the league.

It's a team game. There are no "one man gangs" in pro football. A great QB needs help on both sides of the ball to win championships. I grew up watching Dan Fouts lead "Air Coryell" threw most of the 1980's. Probably the best offense of the 80's in terms of yardage and points per game. They never made a SB b/c the defense couldn't stop anyone when it mattered in the playoffs

Jalen Hurts played the game of his life last night...and lost. His fumble ended up being a factor in the loss, but if the Eagle defense and Special Teams had played better in the 2nd half he'd have a SB ring right now.

Even Mahomes needed a defensive TD in the first half and big punt return/ST play that swung momentum in the 2nd half to win the game.

Football is the ultimate team sport. You don't have to be great in all 3 phases of the game (Offense, Defense, Special teams). But, if you are mediocre to bad in any one of them you won't win a Super Bowl.

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DeAngelo Beason Proficient

DeAngelo Beason

Posted
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36 minutes ago, SCO96 said:

It's a team game. There are no "one man gangs" in pro football. A great QB needs help on both sides of the ball to win championships. I grew up watching Dan Fouts lead "Air Coryell" threw most of the 1980's. Probably the best offense of the 80's in terms of yardage and points per game. They never made a SB b/c the defense couldn't stop anyone when it mattered in the playoffs

Jalen Hurts played the game of his life last night...and lost. His fumble ended up being a factor in the loss, but if the Eagle defense and Special Teams had played better in the 2nd half he'd have a SB ring right now.

Even Mahomes needed a defensive TD in the first half and big punt return/ST play that swung momentum in the 2nd half to win the game.

Football is the ultimate team sport. You don't have to be great in all 3 phases of the game (Offense, Defense, Special teams). But, if you are mediocre to bad in any one of them you won't win a Super Bowl.

Your mention of Jalen Hurts makes my point.  The only QBs in the game were both MVP candidates.  This is also the worst team Mahomes has ever been on and he still came in and performed.  

I'm not suggesting QBs are all you need.  I suggested as much in my initial post.  I'm saying that the proof is in the pudding.  Almost every championship of the past 20+ years was won by a top tier QB.  Gone are the days of a defense holding opponents to 15 points per game while the QB slogs through the mud and they run the ball 40 times a game.  There are only a few very rare exceptions.

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

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1 hour ago, 45catfan said:

Really?  You must not spend much time on the board anymore.  I mean, the Huddle will be calling for Tepper's, Fitterer and Reich's collective heads if we don't move up for a QB this draft as we sit at #9.  Entire threads have been dedicated to moving up for a QB because it's a MUST.

In theory I agree there's not much of a difference in the top 10 unless there's a generational QB at the top of the board.  This draft there is not.  That is not stopping this forum from demanding a trade up though.

I think there are 2 QBs this draft worth trying to get.   Every draft is different. 

and if you don't have a QB and haven't' had a QB for a long time.....you have to start trying to get them. 

I fully support Carolina trying to get one.   You can't play the wait for one to fall to you always.   It rarely happens.  And like Fields or not.  Carolina already missed that.  It happened for us. It doesn't happen often. 

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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I don't think anyone would argue that you need a special QB to win the Super Bowl, it's just a matter of how that QB is found/acquired and developed.  There's where the debate starts.  Remember, Hurts was widely regarded as system QB with accuracy issues coming out of college.  Hurts was also a 2nd round pick as a result.  Mahommes came from Texas Tech where the QBs historically put up huge numbers in a pass happy offense, but were major flops in the NFL.  Saying either one of these guys would be where they are today is a major reach because both had QBs drafted before them and doubts about their game.  

Point being, drafting a QB is a crap shoot and draft position isn't necessarily an indicator of how that player's career will an out.  I mean Trubisky is a backup that got benched for a rookie this year and Jordan Love still can't sniff the field.

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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32 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think there are 2 QBs this draft worth trying to get.   Every draft is different. 

and if you don't have a QB and haven't' had a QB for a long time.....you have to start trying to get them. 

I fully support Carolina trying to get one.   You can't play the wait for one to fall to you always.   It rarely happens.  And like Fields or not.  Carolina already missed that.  It happened for us. It doesn't happen often. 

Yup, and to the dismay of many, I'm will to wait for a loaded 2024 QB class.  Where this class was supposed to be deep, albeit light at the top of the board--next year's class is both deep and top heavy.

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CRA Grand Master

CRA

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7 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

Yup, and to the dismay of many, I'm will to wait for a loaded 2024 QB class.  Where this class was supposed to be deep, albeit light at the top of the board--next year's class is both deep and top heavy.

no guarantee the 2024 class will actually be loaded though. 

a lot can change in a season.  The locks to be contending for a Heisman sometimes don't have the season so many think are givens.  

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SCO96 Veteran

SCO96

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11 minutes ago, DeAngelo Beason said:

Your mention of Jalen Hurts makes my point.  The only QBs in the game were both MVP candidates.  This is also the worst team Mahomes has ever been on and he still came in and performed.  

I'm not suggesting QBs are all you need.  I suggested as much in my initial post.  I'm saying that the proof is in the pudding.  Almost every championship of the past 20+ years was won by a top tier QB.  Gone are the days of a defense holding opponents to 15 points per game while the QB slogs through the mud and they run the ball 40 times a game.  There are only a few very rare exceptions.

Good post. But, QB's just don't "will their teams to victory". QB's don't block, catch passes (at least most of the time), make tackles, intercept passes and force fumbles, kick FG's, or run back kicks. You put a Mahomes, Brady, or Montana on a team that cannot competently do all of the above on a consistent basis, or when it matters most, they won't win SB's.

If you put a Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Nick Foles, Jim Plunkett, Jeff Hostetler on a team that does all of the above very well and the the latter guys don't turn the ball over & make three or four big plays per game, and get the ball out on time, you can win with them.

None of the top tier QB's you allude in your post to played on bad/mediocre teams.

 

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45catfan Grand Master

45catfan

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Just now, CRA said:

no guarantee the 2024 class will actually be loaded though. 

a lot can change in a season.  The locks to be contending for a Heisman sometimes don't have the season so many think are givens.  

A lot of those key QBs that were supposed to be the meat of this draft and opted to stay/transfer will be out of eligibility, plus add in all the guys that will be eligible next year too.  Now injuries, down seasons personally/team-wise will cause some of the crop to stay in school, but the numbers will be much better than this coming draft class.

Coming off a super-weak and thin QB drafts back-to-back is setting up a bumper crop in 2024.

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Growl Veteran

Growl

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27 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

Yup, and to the dismay of many, I'm will to wait for a loaded 2024 QB class.  Where this class was supposed to be deep, albeit light at the top of the board--next year's class is both deep and top heavy.

nobody is dismayed, we’re just bored of this useless do-nothing take now that we’ve seen how flawed and fruitless the thought process is

Panthers aren’t drafting a first round guard, defense doesn’t win championships.

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