Offensive Line

[45catfan]

1 minute ago, Waldo said:

Oline and Dline have a big effect on the game and there is a constant need for those big bodies. There are never enough draft picks and I doubt we could always pull it off but due to nature of the game and positions it's a solid strategy to shoot for, even if you can only get one or thr other that year. I understand there are no guarantees in the draft but it's a solid appraoch for the NFL.

I get all that, but I think a lot of you are forgetting our cap situation this year.  There is no "shopping spree" in FA this year.  The last thing we want to do is start kicking the can down the road a la the Saints. 

Trade back this year, get most of our needs in the draft and next year when our cap should be (if we don't screw it up this offseason) in great shape, then go out and grab the few key pieces the team needs.

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

Normally I would agree, but remember, we are extremely cap poor this year and the last thing we need to do...ESPECIALLY with a new staff and club not contending is go out and blow a lot of money we don't have.

See my reply in the other thread.

The cap is basically no longer a real concern. It's just a shell game.

And we did hire people smart enough to finally play it.

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

I get all that, but I think a lot of you are forgetting our cap situation this year.  There is no "shopping spree" in FA this year.  The last thing we want to do is start kicking the can down the road a la the Saints. 

Trade back this year, get most of our needs in the draft and next year when our cap should be (if we don't screw it up this offseason) in great shape, then go out and grab the few key pieces the team needs.

You may not remember this clip but this explains some of what is going on. 

 

[45catfan]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

See my reply in the other thread.

The cap is basically no longer a real concern. It's just a shell game.

And we did hire people smart enough to finally play it.

It's a shell game to an extent.  Eventually you have to pay the piper.  The Saints are figuring that out and the reason I think, in part, why McVay is stepping away from the Rams.  The "burn out" excuse is a straw man. The Rams had about a 3-year window to make a run, they did it in year one, it imploded this year and the wheels h ve already fallen off for next year.  After that, it's a full-blown rebuild.  McVay has no intentions of sticking around for that, just like once Brees retired, Payton wasn't sticking around for the aftermath of the Saints forcing their championship window to stay open longer.

[Waldo]

3 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

I get all that, but I think a lot of you are forgetting our cap situation this year.  There is no "shopping spree" in FA this year.  The last thing we want to do is start kicking the can down the road a la the Saints. 

Trade back this year, get most of our needs in the draft and next year when our cap should be (if we don't screw it up this offseason) in great shape, then go out and grab the few key pieces the team needs.

All signs point to this crew re-doing deals and pushing dead cap back Saints style again. I don't like it but it seems to be what Tepper and the cap guy want to do. Until they don't I am going to assume they will follow that style of opperating.

I hear you but I don't think it's that big of deal yet. We need both this year anyways until we resign Bozeman and we definitely need another DE.

[Waldo]

Just now, 45catfan said:

It's a shell game to an extent.  Eventually you have to pay the piper.  The Saints are figuring that out and the reason I think, in part, why McVay is stepping away from the Rams.  The "burn out" excuse is a straw man. The Rams had about a 3-year window to make a run, they did it in year one, it imploded this year and the wheels h ve already fallen off for next year.  After that, it's a full-blown rebuild.  McVay has no intentions of sticking around for that, just like once Brees retired, Payton wasn't sticking around for the aftermath of the Saints forcing their championship window to stay open longer.

To do it with out a franchise QB sized contract on the books is just embarrassing that they are doing this needlessly. And the money wasted on underperforming contracts, it would be funny on any other team.

[45catfan]

6 minutes ago, Waldo said:

To do it with out a franchise QB sized contract on the books is just embarrassing that they are doing this needlessly. And the money wasted on underperforming contracts, it would be funny on any other team.

Example #1.  This was just for an average DT.  So yes, they are already doing this and for JAG players, not even impact players.  Matt Ioannidis

Look at the money we are paying this guy years later just to make the numbers work for a year. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by 45catfan

[Waldo]

12 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

See my reply in the other thread.

The cap is basically no longer a real concern. It's just a shell game.

And we did hire people smart enough to finally play it.

Not true. It is very real but it is also more elastic than the traditional approach acknowledges. I hope to hear a retreat from that careless appraoch and to some place in between those 2 operating styles.

[Waldo]

1 minute ago, 45catfan said:

Example #1.  This was just for an average DT.  So yes, they are already doing this and for JAG players, not even impact players.  Matt Ioannidis

Look at the money we are paying this guy years later just to make the numbers work for a year. 

I really don't like our cap guy. This screams to me 'I'm the smartest guy, look how smart I am'. At least the Saints were doing this for pro-bowler quality players lol. Embarrassing but U don't think it will change yet.

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, 45catfan said:

It's a shell game to an extent.  Eventually you have to pay the piper.  The Saints are figuring that out and the reason I think, in part, why McVay is stepping away from the Rams.  The "burn out" excuse is a straw man. The Rams had about a 3-year window to make a run, they did it in year one, it imploded this year and the wheels h ve already fallen off for next year.  After that, it's a full-blown rebuild.  McVay has no intentions of sticking around for that, just like once Brees retired, Payton wasn't sticking around for the aftermath of the Saints forcing their championship window to stay open longer.

I think you are spinning a much wilder conspiracy than actually exists. McVay is leaving because of personal reasons and I am sure the specter of rebuilding doesn't attract him either. But....most NFL teams go through rebuilding. If you are smart and do things well, you can also stay competitive during those rebuilds. How many successive rebuilds have the Steelers and Pats gone through while still being winning teams?

You can't spend like a drunken sailor or make a bunch of bad decisions on personnel. THAT is where you create trouble. Having unproductive players on the books that you have to jettison or suffer through. THAT is how you can fail at this.

Other than that, the cap is literally not a concern. We can retool a BUNCH of our current contracts to keep making space and kicking that can. All the while, we can pay out big lump sums to the players which makes them happy. 

So, you really don't need to be worried about the cap. Hurney is gone and we actually have people in the building that understand how to play these tricks. 

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Not true. It is very real but it is also more elastic than the traditional approach acknowledges. I hope to hear a retreat from that careless appraoch and to some place in between those 2 operating styles.

I mean, it is literally not real. You can pay in a single year massive amounts of money over it but you can prorate it to the ends of the earth to keep those figures down. Then when the base salary money starts rising, convert to signing bonus, prorated out further and create more cap.

It is a complete shell game. That is what most intelligent teams do.

Like I said, you still can't spend like a drunken sailor on underperforming players because that will 100% catch up to you. 

[Waldo]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

I mean, it is literally not real. You can pay in a single year massive amounts of money over it but you can prorate it to the ends of the earth to keep those figures down. Then when the base salary money starts rising, convert to signing bonus, prorated out further and create more cap.

It is a complete shell game. That is what most intelligent teams do.

Like I said, you still can't spend like a drunken sailor on underperforming players because that will 100% catch up to you. 

It is real it is just different. The fact that signing underperforming players can catchup to you is just one way to prove it is very real. The 'the cap is not real' is completely missleading and not true.

It's different but the 18 mil we owe CMC this year is real and will force us to push more and more, certainly not all top players, further and further back. Some of that makes sense and I think others are just people overusing or missused to being able to cheat the system.

I absolutly belive that if you don't have a franchise QB contract on the books then there shouldn't be a huge, not zero but also not every deal, need for this unless you have really bad cntracts on the books, much like CMCs.

The teams that won a SB with this method are having issues overcoming it. Watching the Rams HC walk to get away from it just like Payton is also part of that process. It is so real that they know the tallent isn't enough to make it work when it's that big of a hole.

[Mr. Scot]

Just remembering back a few months ago when there were people trying to tell me Bozeman must not be that good since he didn't earn playing time under Rhule

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, Waldo said:

It is real it is just different. The fact that signing underperforming players can catchup to you is just one way to prove it is very real. The 'the cap is not real' is completely missleading and not true.

It's different but the 18 mil we owe CMC this year is real and will force us to push more and more, certainly not all top players, further and further back. Some of that makes sense and I think others are just people overusing or missused to being able to cheat the system.

I absolutly belive that if you don't have a franchise QB contract on the books then there shouldn't be a huge, not zero but also not every deal, need for this unless you have really bad cntracts on the books, much like CMCs.

The teams that won a SB with this method are having issues overcoming it. Watching the Rams HC walk to get away from it just like Payton is also part of that process. It is so real that they know the tallent isn't enough to make it work when it's that big of a hole.

The salary cap is intended to make sure all teams have an annual limit to what they spend on salary.

However that is literally not what happens. You can go an INSANE amount over that limit(like the Rams did) to win in a year span(or multiple years, if you want). That is precisely why I say it isn't real. It isn't any more real than saying that the if I make $578,125 in income in 2023 that I have to pay 37% in income taxes. Sure....if I am an idiot and don't use every available loophole to ensure that doesn't happen. That is what is happening here. Teams use these loopholes to make that salary cap almost nonexistent.

CMC is a great example of an insanely bad personnel move. We paid a lower value player an insane sum of money that he was not worth. And then we doubled down by making this deal very unfriendly to the cap. So when you make mistakes like that, you can either cut bait like we did, eat a player that kills your cap or keep extending him forever to alleviate the impact of the original dumb decision. Shaq is yet another example of this.

Creating cap problems isn't nearly as detrimental to your future as trading away premium draft capital in a "win now" mode. THAT is how you end up fuged in the long term. Because not having cheap and potentially elite talent to bring along as you replace more expensive players is a recipe for disaster.