Is Mcadoo developing Darnold??

[Rags]

1 minute ago, LinvilleGorge said:

 My point is I think we're at the point where we can justify taking swings on QB. I don't see us getting significantly better by building an overall stronger roster. We need a fuging QB.

Disagree there. 

We're have one good WR, and he's not an elite guy. All the QBs rn that have success have a least one elite receiving threat, with guys like Herbert and Burrow (who I love, I think they're both worht of being called "elite" where QB play is rn across the league), and all offenses that are good have at least one elite playmaker that's good. We have neither, not saying a great QB can't elevate what we have, but that QB would have to be really good. 

Our pass rush is one player, and even then he's got a limited repertoire of power move, and is more reliant on speed moves which is easier to handle 1-on-1 unless you have elite bend, so unfortunately his skill set doesn't open up more for the Dline. There's a reason we blitz a lot, and that opens up

Everyone but Horn and sometimes Djax and Woods is really suspect in coverage. And Djax has an achilles injury. Our LBs are bad in coverage, and our one great LB is really really bad in space. The combonation of these things makes us really suspectable to tempo changes -- our defense is at its worse when it has to react instead of predict -- and thats why sometimes start going on runs against us. 

Redzone offense has been abysmal. We once had Cam Newton, Mike Tolbert, Johnathan Stewart and Greg Olsen all on the same offense. We have none of that now and have done nothing to replace it really. 

And finally our run game! Our star player is in a contract year. Now I do think he needs us as much as we need him, but if he leaves this is a different offense, and while Foreman only has a couple of talents, he does them very well. We're either gonna have to pay him -- which takes up cap space to fill up other holes, or find a replacement to maintain this level of play.

it's really not as simple as just get a QB, especially since to be a contender next year we'd need a rly good QB.

[LinvilleGorge]

9 minutes ago, Rags said:

Disagree there. 

We're have one good WR, and he's not an elite guy. All the QBs rn that have success have a least one elite receiving threat, with guys like Herbert and Burrow (who I love, I think they're both worht of being called "elite" where QB play is rn across the league), and all offenses that are good have at least one elite playmaker that's good. We have neither, not saying a great QB can't elevate what we have, but that QB would have to be really good. 

Our pass rush is one player, and even then he's got a limited repertoire of power move, and is more reliant on speed moves which is easier to handle 1-on-1 unless you have elite bend, so unfortunately his skill set doesn't open up more for the Dline. There's a reason we blitz a lot, and that opens up

Everyone but Horn and sometimes Djax and Woods is really suspect in coverage. And Djax has an achilles injury. Our LBs are bad in coverage, and our one great LB is really really bad in space. The combonation of these things makes us really suspectable to tempo changes -- our defense is at its worse when it has to react instead of predict -- and thats why sometimes start going on runs against us. 

Redzone offense has been abysmal. We once had Cam Newton, Mike Tolbert, Johnathan Stewart and Greg Olsen all on the same offense. We have none of that now and have done nothing to replace it really. 

And finally our run game! Our star player is in a contract year. Now I do think he needs us as much as we need him, but if he leaves this is a different offense, and while Foreman only has a couple of talents, he does them very well. We're either gonna have to pay him -- which takes up cap space to fill up other holes, or find a replacement to maintain this level of play.

it's really not as simple as just get a QB, especially since to be a contender next year we'd need a rly good QB.

How has it been working trying to load up on talent outside of QB to try to win with subpar QB play? We've spent ridiculous draft capital on this defense. The OL is solid. We have really good players at all the marquee positions minus QB. Horn at CB. Moore at WR. Ickey at LT. Burns on the edge. Derrick Brown in the middle. Those are the highest paid positions in the league outside of QB and we have really good talent and all but one is still on a rookie contract. We're pissing away a great opportunity with these talents on cheap contracts because we're too scared to step up and swing at QB. As we have to start paying these guys were going to have to start making other roster decisions. There's no such thing as a perfect roster and every roster wants for upgrades. But we have a good situation where our best talent is at marquee positions.

A legit franchise QB and coaching staff wins 10+ games with this roster and might just compete for a SB in the NFC.

[chbright]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Because at some point you have to start swinging. We've been making excuses for years. Identify a guy and go get him. Have the guts to dare to be great. Try to e great. Don't sit around and hope you can be the best bad team to limp into the playoffs but not actually be able to threaten to win it all.

If you mortgage the future you better be right. It's one thing to take a single pick and swing with it, but if you gotta move up to do it, but miss with a meh roster like we have, it puts you in a world a hurt with the future early picks being gone and valuable.  If we get the right guy, well who cares it's worth it. If not it's a lot of guys in the FO and coaching staff that will pay with their jobs. And yes it's their job to get that right but it's a monumental gamble.

I agree sometime, you have to take swings at QB until you find a top half starter you could win the whole thing with. I think what the foreskins did with RGIII and cousins was right. If you find a good one in the 1st take them. If you find another in the 3rd fire again. The QB train normally is a bitch to get right so more bites more shots at getting one.

SF is kinda bucking that but then again they had a killer, all be it injured, roster when they went all in for lance. Then again they had a guy that's in that mid range guy in jimmy G.  Also they have a really good staff and lots of players for help.

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, chbright said:

If you mortgage the future you better be right. It's one thing to take a single pick and swing with it, but if you gotta move up to do it, but miss with a meh roster like we have, it puts you in a world a hurt with the future early picks being gone and valuable.  If we get the right guy, well who cares it's worth it. If not it's a lot of guys in the FO and coaching staff that will pay with their jobs. And yes it's their job to get that right but it's a monumental gamble.

I agree sometime, you have to take swings at QB until you find a top half starter you could win the whole thing with. I think what the foreskins did with RGIII and cousins was right. If you find a good one in the 1st take them. If you find another in the 3rd fire again. The QB train normally is a bitch to get right so more bites more shots at getting one.

SF is kinda bucking that but then again they had a killer, all be it injured, roster when they went all in for lance. Then again they had a guy that's in that mid range guy in jimmy G.  Also they have a really good staff and lots of players for help.

There's no one in this draft I'm banging the table to move up for. If Richardson is there, draft him. His upside is worth the risk if his interviews check out. 

[Sean Payton's Vicodin]

richardson will literally save this franchise from the tennessee titans curse

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, Sean Payton's Vicodin said:

richardson will literally save this franchise from the tennessee titans curse

He's boom or bust but if he busts we still have good talent at the non-QB marquee positions. We're still fine. Just swing again. Drafting a stud at a non-QB position wouldn't substantially change who we are. Take a chance on the talent.

[glenwo2]

6 hours ago, frankw said:

Best case scenario is Sam can be a decent backup/bridge until the next QB is ready to go. The concern is over the next few games will circumstances allow him to continue to eek by without having to do much more than he's asked. It's inevitable we will see some wtf moments and even an OC like McAdoo is capable of hiding those for a time but it won't last.

 

6 hours ago, mav1234 said:

Eh... If he plays mistake free he'd be a good backup imo. And maybe that gets us the division and playoffs... Then, My feeling is that if he falls flat in the playoffs, where he will NEED to do more than just lean on our rushing, it'll be clear to everyone he isn't the answer 

@frankwand you make a good point.    I also think Sam can be a decent bridge QB until the next QB is ready.   The key thing, though, is whether the Panthers can find that next QB?   If they can't, they will have to keep throwing Sam out there while continuing to "swing for the fences" in the draft.

 

4 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'd be all for drafting Anthony Richardson and retaining Darnold as a bridge QB to ensure we're not forced to try to play Richardson before he's ready.

Sure.  I'm game.   '

 

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

If we get put in a situation where we have to throw to try to win down the stretch we'll find out. I know where my money is. If I'm wrong, awesome. 

Don't you want to be wrong, though?   

Whenever Sam airs a ball out, I hold my breath. 

If he makes more of those types of throws he completes to DJ and TMJ (and keeps the turnovers to a bare minimum; None, being desired), I would be ecstatic. 

 

56 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You're not winning a SB with Sam Darnold at QB. So you keep swinging. 

 

You're not winning  a SB if you don't get into the Big Tournament (playoffs) first.   

But yeah you're right.   I'd rather we keep looking for that Franchise QB as well.

11 minutes ago, frankw said:

So Baker Mayfield who most here would agree was total ass cheeks as a Carolina Panther just set the single game completion percentage record for the Rams at 85.7% in a win where they dropped 51 points. Meanwhile some Panthers fans here are ready to crown Sam Darnold because he finally managed 68% with a 300 yard rushing day from his backfield. Gotta love the Panthers fanbase.

Who gives a sh*t what Baker is doing on another team? 

He wasn't doing sh*t as a Panther.

 

[chbright]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

There's no one in this draft I'm banging the table to move up for. If Richardson is there, draft him. His upside is worth the risk if his interviews check out. 

That's where I am too. You can miss with a single 1st where it stings but isn't franchise crippling.

I'm ok going Richardson 1st and another in a mid round. I'm not married to MC or Darnold past the end of the year and next year's draft.

[Rags]

30 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Because at some point you have to start swinging. We've been making excuses for years. Identify a guy and go get him. Have the guts to dare to be great. Try to e great. Don't sit around and hope you can be the best bad team to limp into the playoffs but not actually be able to threaten to win it all.

Yes...but why does the swinging need to be this year? Note i'm not saying it shouldn't. I like Richardson, he fits our run mindset that I think we can lower his floor at least a bit, and i do like his ceiling, but why does it need to be this year?  If the bar for QB play rn in the NFC are the likes of Jared Goff, Kirk Cousins and Dak Prescott, why do we need to massively out class that rn? Whos to say we can't build a system to have our own Kirk Cousins or Dak Prescott? 

Like those are all great, cool and motivational things you're saying, but building a team and preparing to win is more than just Getting that guy. 

20 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

How has it been working trying to load up on talent outside of QB to try to win with subpar QB play? We've spent ridiculous draft capital on this defense. The OL is solid. We have really good players at all the marquee positions minus QB. Horn at CB. Moore at WR. Ickey at LT. Burns on the edge. Derrick Brown in the middle. Those are the highest paid positions in the league outside of QB and we have really good talent and all but one is still on a rookie contract. We're pissing away a great opportunity with these talents on cheap contracts because we're too scared to step up and swing at QB. As we have to start paying these guys were going to have to start making other roster decisions. There's no such thing as a perfect roster and every roster wants for upgrades. But we have a good situation where our best talent is at marquee positions.

A legit franchise QB and coaching staff wins 10+ games with this roster and might just compete for a SB in the NFC.

It's been working very poorly because our offense has been bad for 2 1/2 seasons. But why has it been bad? Teddy gave us consistent ball movement and great pocket presence to mask how truly poo our o-line was, but then we added Sam Darnold -- a guy who panicked under pressure -- and then put him behind a bad o-line. Then earlier this year we had P.J. Walker and Baker Mayfield as our QBs, but even then P.J. gave us at least an outline of how to be an offense. 

And now why is it working? Oline is filled out from left to right, pass protection isn't elite but its MILES ahead of the turnstiles they were for the better part of a decade (An issue on this team masked by Cam Newton and CMC). Darnold has shown progress in his development, he takes sacks knows how to go through his progression a little better, also taking what the defense gives him more, and honestly our coaching has improved. Not great but better than Rhule. 

Yes, we'll have to start paying these guys...but who else are we paying right now? And thats sure as fug not gonna change if we draft a QB. This one part of the reason people, or at least me, don't mind betting on Darnold next year -- showing progress and at a price where we might be able to lock him up at a decent rate. There's no such thing as a perfect roster, but you don't get better by adding a QB who has a high bust rate. 

A legit QB can make a lot of coaching staffs look better, sure. But that's not the only order these things effect one another. This is to say i'm not content with this team, but I don't think the only way we can be better than this season is swinging for the fences.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Rags

[LinvilleGorge]

Maybe next year. It's always maybe next year. Then folks somehow get caught by surprise when we suck again.

 

 

 

[Rags]

2 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Maybe next year. It's always maybe next year. Then folks somehow get caught by surprise when we suck again.

No I won't be surprised if we suck next season. I think a combination of things have to be right to not suck and I'm not convinced we're gonna hit those things, both from an orginzational level and a players and execution level. 

One of these things, believe it or not is drafting Richardson and getting some offensive skill postion help through trades or FA (please god let us get Jeudy) and draft a solid HB in this years draft (it's a deep draft at HB, like actually deep not ppl just saying poo deep) and then best case, Richardsons natural gifts lets us play our ball control style of offense and let our defense play with a lead and aggressive so our weaknesses on defense aren't as apparent, and even then I think that'd be help with out division still being mostly poo rn. 

I just don't think that's the only way, and I think relying on Darnold has as many pros and cons for the immidate future (next 1-3 years) as drafting Richardson.

But either way i don't think we won't not suck next year, realistically. We're the Panthers.

[LinvilleGorge]

Relying on Darnold doesn't have any pros.

[chbright]

2 minutes ago, Rags said:

Yes...but why does the swinging need to be this year? Note i'm not saying it shouldn't. I like Richardson, he fits our run mindset that I think we can lower his floor at least a bit, and i do like his ceiling, but why does it need to be this year?  If the bar for QB play rn in the NFC are the likes of Jared Goff, Kirk Cousins and Dak Prescott, why do we need to massively out class that rn? Whos to say we can't build a system to have our own Kirk Cousins or Dak Prescott? 

Like those are all great, cool and motivational things you're saying, but building a team and preparing to win is more than just Getting that guy. 

 

 

Yes, we'll have to start paying these guys...but who else are we paying right now? And thats sure as fug not gonna change if we draft a QB. This one part of the reason people, or at least me, don't mind betting on Darnold next year -- showing progress and at a price where we might be able to lock him up at a decent rate. There's no such thing as a perfect roster, but you don't get better by adding a QB who has a high bust rate. 

A legit QB can make a lot of coaching staffs look better, sure. But that's not the only order these things effect one another. 

So the chiefs were good, didn't need to swing with Alex smith, a top 100 player, and made the post season with him in 2016. Got their guy in 2017 and rest is history. Part of the reason they won it all: cheap elite QB on a rookie deal..............

Darnold has 4 games this year. That's enough to be the guy going forward? Bridge money (sub 15 per) is meh for a guy who's film is a lot of icky and burst of good. With that in mind you are still looking for a QB while you hope Darnold keeps improving. 

A great/elite QB lifts a good team to great. Especially when the current options on the roster are meh to icky.

Richardson has the tools to be elite. There are a few others this year that have good-great potential. At some time you gotta start taking shots at them. We started last year, and maybe MC is the guy. So far not much pointed to that outcome, but need to see a staff post rhule's eval and work before that grade goes out. 

[LinvilleGorge]

Nah, we'd be so much better to tread water with Darnold and maybe take a QB next year with our inevitable top 10 pick. At which point the narrative will be to give Corral a shot and maybe look at a QB in '24. At which point the '25 QB class will look can't miss. And so on and so forth...