Attacking “glass half full” posters after a loss…

[ForJimmy]

33 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

That I agree with - my post wasn't about one game but the wider context is all, but may not have been clear. Sorry if that was confusing - that's why I asked if you thought they were tanking.

It's hard / impossible to truly tank in the NFL intentionally, but at least having a bad coaching staff gets you part way there

You’re right. No team is going to willingly tank and I kind of don’t blame them…

[Newtcase]

17 hours ago, MickMixon'sMetaphors said:

I go through phases of glass half full, glass half empty, but never really care to create posts or comments calling out the other side of the coin.  I don't see the point, but it makes the internet, the internet.

Sometimes you have to call an audible.  Football is multi-phase, you can't neglect any of them.

[panthers55]

2 hours ago, Varking said:

I want us to win every game. When we lose I pivot to well at least it helps our draft stock. I think there is a growing segment of posters here who are tired of winning “one pointless game” towards the end of every season that hurts our draft positioning and causes us to miss out on a guy like Justin Herbert. The folks who typically argue with “it’s not just a game, it’s good for the culture to win” have had it their way for years now and we haven’t gotten better. This organization desperately needs a QB fans, and the building, can actually believe in. 

For me, I would rather lose out and make it easier to stay where we are at, or even move up, if we determine XYZ is our guy. 

Years ago folks wanted to trade up to first overall and mortgage the draft for two years to pair Joe Brady with Joe Burrow. Looking back, I think this would have been the right move. A win at the end of the season moves you down the draft board and makes it harder to move up. But, for the culture, right?

We missed out on drafting Justin Herbert by 1 draft slot. A slot we would have been in, or better, if not for one “culture win” to end the season. 

Then we passed on Justin Fields to grab an elite corner. Topper wanted Fields but Rhule wanted a corner. I think this was the third straight draft where we should have gone after a QB and we didn’t early. 

There were no worse cultures to be in than the Jaguars. The Jags couldn’t win games and their coach was toxic and wasted a year of a stud rookie QB. But in year 2, that QB is coming along and they are in the playoff hunt already. And they have reasons to be excited for the future. 

Chicago has reasons to be excited for the future.

Carolina does not, yet. We need a QB. It’s time to go get one high up in the draft and develop him. I am tired of winning five games with retread QBs while we waste young talents rookie years under contract. 

I understand totally the logic of losing out to get a better draft pick. I don't understand why a fan who wasn't a GM or involved in the draft would be  rooting for that to happen. First of all let's say we get a top 2 or 3 pick. How many times could we have gotten a QB at the pick we had and we passed on it? So we lose out now and we don't get a QB. What have we gained? And who is to say this top pick will work out and make us better?? And last year the first qb was picked at 20. So given that the draft is a crap shoot and you don't know where things will end up anyway, the only rational approach is to root to win every week and then worry about the draft when it gets here. Otherwise hoping to tank guarantees nothing except you will miserable all year and miserable in the offseason if we don't pick who you want. But hoping to tank doesn't make you a smart fan or doesnt show you are not settling for mediocre. 

[Varking]

14 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

I understand totally the logic of losing out to get a better draft pick. I don't understand why a fan who wasn't a GM or involved in the draft would be  rooting for that to happen. First of all let's say we get a top 2 or 3 pick. How many times could we have gotten a QB at the pick we had and we passed on it? So we lose out now and we don't get a QB. What have we gained? And who is to say this top pick will work out and make us better?? And last year the first qb was picked at 20. So given that the draft is a crap shoot and you don't know where things will end up anyway, the only rational approach is to root to win every week and then worry about the draft when it gets here. Otherwise hoping to tank guarantees nothing except you will miserable all year and miserable in the offseason if we don't pick who you want. But hoping to tank doesn't make you a smart fan or doesnt show you are not settling for mediocre. 

If you pick 2 or 3 you only miss out on 1-2 players. I’m sure there’s a guy still available that we would have liked. When you draft that high you are one of the few teams in the NFL that isn’t super at the mercy of everyone else hoping your guy falls. And if you are, it’s a lot easier to trade from 2 or 3 to 1 than it is to move from 10 to 1, for instance. 
 

I don’t claim to be smarter than any other fan on this board. I just see what we have been doing and can also see that it’s not been working. You can lose games or trade picks to move up. I don’t care which one we do. Just identify our guy and go get him. 
 

edit: I’ll also point out that I DO root for us to win every single week. I’ve said that in multiple posts. But when we lose I switch over to draft mode. I just want us to get a QB. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Varking

[Sgt Schultz]

2 minutes ago, Varking said:

If you pick 2 or 3 you only miss out on 1-2 players. I’m sure there’s a guy still available that we would have liked. When you draft that high you are one of the few teams in the NFL that isn’t super at the mercy of everyone else hoping your guy falls. And if you are, it’s a lot easier to trade from 2 or 3 to 1 than it is to move from 10 to 1, for instance. 
 

I don’t claim to be smarter than any other fan on this board. I just see what we have been doing and can also see that it’s not been working. You can lose games or trade picks to move up. I don’t care which one we do. Just identify our guy and go get him. 
 

edit: I’ll also point out that I DO root for us to win every single week. I’ve said that in multiple posts. But when we lose I switch over to draft mode. I just want us to get a QB. 

I get it, and I'm in much the same boat.  If we win, great.  If we lose, where are we now in the draft order? 

The last time we know a team tried to tank was the 2019 Miami Dolphins.  That effort got them the 5th overall draft pick, not the pot of gold people envision.  It worked out for them, but they had their hearts set on bigger prizes.

Asking professional athletes, who are playing for the next contract, to go out and "lose one for the Gipper" just doesn't work.  They are going to do what they do, sometimes on instinct from years of training.  The only way to get them to dial it back is to get them to not care anymore.  To quit.  Rhule may have accomplished that in the second half of last season. 

So, contrary to popular belief (mine included), he did accomplish one thing in the NFL.

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, Pejorative Miscreant said:

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What this reminded me of

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[uncfan888]

Some people deserve the crap they get like that guy I am hubby aka gerry green 

[kungfoodude]

18 hours ago, Newtcase said:

Tankers and believers both want the same thing, a successful team, they just disagree on how to get there.  The attacks are just emotional investment in those beliefs.

Personally I still identify as apathetic.  God, the NFL, and the very universe hates us.  This is perpetual.

Once Rhule got fired, I was satisfied with the season results.

I would prefer to get a top 5 draft pick but not heavily invested enough to get upset about wins or losses. Just curious to see it all play out. 

I think people need a dose of that. There isn't a reason to get overly invested in the results at this point. Just ride the wave and let the offseason happen. Even if we end up with a top 3 pick, what if we hire a dumpster fire coach that would just fug it up anyway? Even if we ended up with the 20th pick, what if we hired a bang up head coach that will get us to the promised land even without a top pick QB?

Just let it happen.

[Sgt Schultz]

11 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Once Rhule got fired, I was satisfied with the season results.

I would prefer to get a top 5 draft pick but not heavily invested enough to get upset about wins or losses. Just curious to see it all play out. 

I think people need a dose of that. There isn't a reason to get overly invested in the results at this point. Just ride the wave and let the offseason happen. Even if we end up with a top 3 pick, what if we hire a dumpster fire coach that would just fug it up anyway? Even if we ended up with the 20th pick, what if we hired a bang up head coach that will get us to the promised land even without a top pick QB?

Just let it happen.

Once we fired The Process, anything beyond that is gravy!  It is hard to have a bad season when you accomplish that.

[Jon Snow]

1 hour ago, ForJimmy said:

I think he is saying Wilks may not have these great motivational skills people are claiming he does.  Sure they were fired up for a few games (probably because Rhule was gone), but in a game where you are getting outcoached and no adjustments are made, it's hard for players to stay super pumped/motivated.  They can only ride they wave for so long IMO.  Preparation, adjustment, playing your roster to it's strengths can go much longer than simply trying to pump up your players.  

You are assuming there were real adjustments to be made to the game plan with this personnel and coaches.

Their only hope to win was to run the ball and play good defense. Just like Pittsburgh.

They failed miserably at both because Pittsburgh has better players and better coaches than we do.

You cannot hire coaches at halftime or expect the players to somehow magically become better. They cannot somehow magically pull a passing game out of their ass because the coaches do not have a qb that could run one to begin with.

Nah man, we are a one trick pony and until that changes it is what it is.

[top dawg]

18 hours ago, Newtcase said:

 I still identify as apathetic.  God, the NFL, and the very universe hates us.  This is perpetual.

You don't really sound apathetic though. Apathy and fanaticism don't really make sense intellectually. Your response suggests that you're more stoic than apathetic. The last few years under Rhule (and by extension Tepper) and now Wilks have cultivated stoicism for me as a Panthers fan. 

[panthers55]

28 minutes ago, Varking said:

If you pick 2 or 3 you only miss out on 1-2 players. I’m sure there’s a guy still available that we would have liked. When you draft that high you are one of the few teams in the NFL that isn’t super at the mercy of everyone else hoping your guy falls. And if you are, it’s a lot easier to trade from 2 or 3 to 1 than it is to move from 10 to 1, for instance. 
 

I don’t claim to be smarter than any other fan on this board. I just see what we have been doing and can also see that it’s not been working. You can lose games or trade picks to move up. I don’t care which one we do. Just identify our guy and go get him. 
 

edit: I’ll also point out that I DO root for us to win every single week. I’ve said that in multiple posts. But when we lose I switch over to draft mode. I just want us to get a QB. 

The problem with that logic is assuming that everyone picked top 5 will be better than guys picked from 10-15 and they will be better than guys picked at 20-25 and that isn't true even most of the time. And as you note we have had good QB options in the past in the draft and passed.  So who is to say that we will jump on one of the top qbs this year. It surely isn't worth rooting for losses. Now I agree that when we lose I justify it by the fact we get a better draft pick. But it isn't my preferred scenario. And honestly if we make the playoffs it will give a lot of young players needed playoff experience which I see as very valuable and something that will happen versus sucking and hoping for a high draft hoping again we use it for a QB which may or may not happen.

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

You are assuming there were real adjustments to be made to the game plan with this personnel and coaches.

Their only hope to win was to run the ball and play good defense. Just like Pittsburgh.

They failed miserably at both because Pittsburgh has better players and better coaches than we do.

You cannot hire coaches at halftime or expect the players to somehow magically become better. They cannot somehow magically pull a passing game out of their ass because the coaches do not have a qb that could run one to begin with.

Nah man, we are a one trick pony and until that changes it is what it is.

This takes the credit away from his wins as well then.  Just load up the OL and run the ball while playing soft zone not matter the opponent, no matter the outcome.  If a coach can't attempt to make adjustments then then he doesn't really impress me once.  Go down swinging, let Darnold have a shot at airing it out if they are crowding the line, Keep Chinn at LB,  spread out the defense a few plays and if one hits, it's a home run.  Playing conversate "not to lose" football usually ends up losing anyway so what's the point??

Pitt was able to stay the course because it was working.  156 rushing yards and 3 rushing TDs shows that.  I've seen Tomlin let Mitch try to air it out when the running game was stopped (he failed, but he at least attempted to chance his game plan).  Even if you have a 10% chance of it working it's better to aim for that vs the 0% chance of continuing the play that isn't working. Same Panthers different HC...

[Jon Snow]

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

This takes the credit away from his wins as well then.  Just load up the OL and run the ball while playing soft zone not matter the opponent, no matter the outcome.  If a coach can't attempt to make adjustments then then he doesn't really impress me once.  Go down swinging, let Darnold have a shot at airing it out if they are crowding the line, Keep Chinn at LB,  spread out the defense a few plays and if one hits, it's a home run.  Playing conversate "not to lose" football usually ends up losing anyway so what's the point??

Pitt was able to stay the course because it was working.  156 rushing yards and 3 rushing TDs shows that.  I've seen Tomlin let Mitch try to air it out when the running game was stopped (he failed, but he at least attempted to chance his game plan).  Even if you have a 10% chance of it working it's better to aim for that vs the 0% chance of continuing the play that isn't working. Same Panthers different HC...

It's a matter of perspective.  You play the hand you're dealt.  I agree there was a couple personnel substitutions a would have made. But without knowing the circumstances behind those decisions I cannot say there were other options.  He will have to live with it. 

I just cannot see what else they could have done other than to fire McAdoo but it's too late for that.