Where have all the BDJS ers gone?

[panthers55]

If you can't recognize that Smith is a top 5 WR and Jake has been mediocre to average QB his whole career, then I dont know what to tell you. If you can't recognize the reason Smith isn't doing good this year is because Jake is the worst Qb in the league, then you also are a "bdjs". If you really think Jake made Smith as much as Smith has made Jake, then I guess you think the same about Tom Brady and the countless number of WRs he's had right? Or wat about McNabb and all the receivers he's had?

There is a difference between WR talent and QB talent. As far as who makes who, sometimes its mutual, sometimes its not. The only time when it's mutual is when a good QB hooks up with a good WR such as Montana and Rice, Brady and Moss, Peyton and Harrison. Those relationships were mutual. But those same QBs still had other receivers that they made look good.

There are also times when a QB/WR relationship isn't mutal. Like Brady and every other WR he's had besides Moss. Or McNabb and every other WR he's had besides TO back in '04. There are also times the WR makes the QB look good. Look at the Texans. Andre Johnson has had Carr, Banks, and Schuab and still is a top 5 WR. Elite WRs just need someone that can throw in their area and they'll make plays for it. Elite QBs just need someone that doesn't drop the ball. It's a whole lot easier though if you're situation is the latter though.

Jake has always had many flaws with him. I noticed back in 2004 that he was going to have trouble. He's always had happy feet when back in the pocket, he doesn't recognize blitzs before the snap, he doesn't read the field well, rarely were his throws accurate, he would make poor decisions in crucial moments of the game, he would force it to Smith no matter if he was double or triple covered in critcal moments of the game, he had no side vision (see Vikings game last season), he has trouble holding on to the ball when hit, he doesn't know how to take a sack, the list goes on and on. He also had bad mechanics. All of this together was going to bite him in the ass the longer he played and it has.

He used to be able to get the ball to Smith's general direction as Smith made the acrobatic catches, but his throws were always mixed in with some way inaccurate throws. The year when Smith was hurt and Moose was in his prime, alot of his throws to Moose were inaccurate. Alot of the throws were jump balls, but Moose was still able to use his size and strength to fight for the ball.

Each year Jake has either stayed the same or digressed. And right now his inaccurate throws have taken over. Over the years, he has never made any improvements at all. And when he did show signs of improvement, it wasn't long before he regressed right back to his former self. This along with the flaws I mentioned above, it's easy to see that Jake is a product of the guys around him more so than the other way around or it being "mutual".

Where is anyone talking about Brady, Manning, McNabb or anyone else besides Jake and Smitty. You are doing what is commonly called kitchen sinking. You throw out everything including the kitchen sink hoping something lands.

No one is saying that Jake is great and everyone admits he is average. No one is saying Smith isn't a very good talent. My point is that there is no evidence to prove that Smitty made Jake or that he would be a great talent with someone else. Moore has a great opportunity to prove just that over the next 5 games. Frankly I hope he does and I would love some wins this year especially at home.

How about sticking to the issue instead of rambling on and on hoping to make a point.

[MaineManPanther]

Where is anyone talking about Brady, Manning, McNabb or anyone else besides Jake and Smitty. You are doing what is commonly called kitchen sinking. You throw out everything including the kitchen sink hoping something lands.

No one is saying that Jake is great and everyone admits he is average. No one is saying Smith isn't a very good talent. My point is that there is no evidence to prove that Smitty made Jake or that he would be a great talent with someone else. Moore has a great opportunity to prove just that over the next 5 games. Frankly I hope he does and I would love some wins this year especially at home.

How about sticking to the issue instead of rambling on and on hoping to make a point.

No evidence? Of course there is, Smith has the abillity of doing several things that very well have nothing to do with the play of QB. Getting open through various coverages, breaking tackles, his YAC. These would reamain constant regardless of the QB's. Besides Delhomme in years before he has yet to play with any QB that is really above average.

That being said, I dont buy the notion that Smith made Jake. He has no doubt been a help. However, Jake proved in his 04 seaon he didnt need Smith to be succedfull.

[panthers55]

No evidence? Of course there is, Smith has the abillity of doing several things that very well have nothing to do with the play of QB. Getting open through various coverages, breaking tackles, his YAC. These would reamain constant regardless of the QB's. Besides Delhomme in years before he has yet to play with any QB that is really above average.

That being said, I dont buy the notion that Smith made Jake. He has no doubt been a help. However, Jake proved in his 04 seaon he didnt need Smith to be succedfull.

When has he shown he can consistently get open against good corners? Look at his performances against good corners and you find that physical defensive backs shut him down as many times as not. You don't have to go back past last week to see that. Smitty's size plays against him. He struggles to get separation against bigger physical backs or against double coverage. Quarterbacks have a smaller window to hit as well given his smaller stature. Even his great leaping ability has been absent this year.

As for playing with lots of quarterbacks other than Jake, he hasn't. But again that doesn't prove or disprove anything. My point is that people assume Smitty would be better with any other quarterback and all I am is saying that until it is proven, it is simply speculation.

[j2sgam]

So now we're making threads just to gloat over the failure of our starting QB? Yay, Jake failed and we're a losing team, let's celebrate and lord it over those who backed the guy.

BTW, you can bet your ass that I'll be backing Matt Moore and whoever comes after him too, so sue me.

This...

Is it just me, or do you guys have to force yourselves to stop watching southcakalac's sig over and over again.

Does anyone knows whose boobs those are?

..this...

Bottom line is all of us BJDJS are now BMMJS. In the end we are Panther fans and root for whoever is the quarterback just like we did before Jake got here. People who root for players instead of the team aren't Panthers fans they are (insert name) fans. Just like all the supposed Atlanta fans that abandoned the team when Vick left.

..and this..

Like it or not, Jake has taken this team the farthest. As bad as he is, this team has had worse. Yea, not all of his throw are catchable, but not all the catchable ones are caught, and its not always on him. What is problem with standing behind our QB good or bad? I dont think any BDJS is not going to agree that he has not performed enough to keep playing, I thought he was done after Dallas. As much as I disagree with Fox, he's the coach, I'm a fan, and I should support him. Doesnt mean somebody else cant do a better job than both Fox and Jake, but its who we have, so I want them to win. I will be just as happy if we win with whoever is said positions, and I will hate it just as much with the next guy as I am with it now. So I admit to my BDJSedness, what now?

:rant:

[Squirrel]

Point being we sholuld have upgraded the QB position in 2006.

[Mr. Scot]

Point being we sholuld have upgraded the QB position in 2006.

They tried in 2007. It didn't go so well.

A lot of folks who talk about this team ignoring the QB position forget that.

[AKPantherFan]

i think Jake isnt done playing in the NFL.

He might be done this season, but he has too much fight in him to hang'em up

[AceMan]

Oh noez people supporting someone in adversity! Heaven forbid. :nonod:

Actually, you guys are showing that you're NOT supporting someone in adversity. All you're doing is what John Fox dictates which makes you blind fans. Jake Delhomme is facing adversity NOW, yet all you blind fans are now ready to jump on the Matt Moore bandwagon instead of defending your QB. Stop being sackhoppers! :mad5:

Bottom line is all of us BJDJS are now BMMJS. In the end we are Panther fans and root for whoever is the quarterback just like we did before Jake got here. People who root for players instead of the team aren't Panthers fans they are (insert name) fans. Just like all the supposed Atlanta fans that abandoned the team when Vick left.

This just further proves the blind part. This just shows that some of our "fans" have no opinion or original thought and will cheer for whoever is in a Panthers uniform. If you're going to be a blind Panthers fan, leave the deep analysis to the fans to objectively view the game. Geez, you can root for the team, but disagree with certain decisions. Oh noez...John Fox said Jake Delhomme is our best chance to win and I disagree...I'm a bad fan...GTFO of here with that "real fan" crap.

And finally, Steve Smith made Jake Delhomme. Obviously. Sadly, we settled for an average QB with "leadership" skills and never tried to get a true franchise QB. Also, BS on the call that we tried in 2007. David Carr was brought in only to be a back up QB. Jake Delhomme has never been challenged since he became a starter in 2003. In his prime, Steve Smith was considered a Top 3 WR. In Jake Delhomme's prime, he was an average QB...who made who? Also, all that good corner shutting down Steve Smith is BS because when have we ever exploited coverages rolling over to Smith in the passing game or Delhomme having a good game when Smith is being handled? Exactly.

[southcakalac]

Show me were I've jumped on the Matt Moore bandwagon.

[panthers55]

Actually, you guys are showing that you're NOT supporting someone in adversity. All you're doing is what John Fox dictates which makes you blind fans. Jake Delhomme is facing adversity NOW, yet all you blind fans are now ready to jump on the Matt Moore bandwagon instead of defending your QB. Stop being sackhoppers! :mad5:

This just further proves the blind part. This just shows that some of our "fans" have no opinion or original thought and will cheer for whoever is in a Panthers uniform. If you're going to be a blind Panthers fan, leave the deep analysis to the fans to objectively view the game. Geez, you can root for the team, but disagree with certain decisions. Oh noez...John Fox said Jake Delhomme is our best chance to win and I disagree...I'm a bad fan...GTFO of here with that "real fan" crap.

And finally, Steve Smith made Jake Delhomme. Obviously. Sadly, we settled for an average QB with "leadership" skills and never tried to get a true franchise QB. Also, BS on the call that we tried in 2007. David Carr was brought in only to be a back up QB. Jake Delhomme has never been challenged since he became a starter in 2003. In his prime, Steve Smith was considered a Top 3 WR. In Jake Delhomme's prime, he was an average QB...who made who? Also, all that good corner shutting down Steve Smith is BS because when have we ever exploited coverages rolling over to Smith in the passing game or Delhomme having a good game when Smith is being handled? Exactly.

I would nominate this for ignorant post of the week but you seem to have several entries already. I don't know if you miss the point or just aren't able to grasp logic.

The point is that you support the team and the players no matter who they are. It isn't about abandoning Jake so much as supporting Moore and wishing him well. BDJSs if they were that, would continue to want Jake to start regardless of his performance and criticize Moore at every turn even before he gets a chance to play because they only care about supporting a player and not the team. Jake is still here but has struggled. It is time to see what Moore can do. If you can't see that then discussing it any further is a waste of time.

As for the whole fan biz, I can't tell what you are and really don't care.

And the whole Smitty made Jake or vice versa debate negates the basic concept that quarterbacks and receivers make each other look good. All quarterbacks rely on receivers to go up and get the ball. And behind any quarterback are receivers who make them look good every time they make a great catch on a ball that isn't thrown perfectly. Conversely every time the quarterback makes a pump fake to confuse the safety or audibelizes to take advantage of the defense he is giving his receivers a better chance for favorable matchups which gets them wide open for an easy catch. You can't have one without the other. Lets see what Moore and Smith can do and then the debate can continue with something other than speculation.

Cutler is a perfect example. Look at his performance this year versus last. The difference are a new system, different offensive line and different receivers which don't match up with his strengths. Did the Broncos receivers make Cutler? Did Cutler make them? Or was their a symbiotic relationship between the receivers, quarterback, offensive system etc which worked in Denver that doesn't work now in Chicago? That doesn't even include other issues such as a good offensive line in Denver versus a pretty poor one in Chicago right now. Most of you who engage in concrete black and white thinking miss the complexities of the game and the basic premise that there are multiple factors that influence each aspect of the game.

[southcakalac]

^

This + imaginary rep

[AceMan]

Show me were I've jumped on the Matt Moore bandwagon.

You haven't really offered an actual opinion yet.

[AceMan]

I would nominate this for ignorant post of the week but you seem to have several entries already. I don't know if you miss the point or just aren't able to grasp logic.

Sigh...way to start off a post...

The point is that you support the team and the players no matter who they are.

Again, this shows that you are a blind fan. I don't know how more obvious I can make it.

It isn't about abandoning Jake so much as supporting Moore and wishing him well. BDJSs if they were that, would continue to want Jake to start regardless of his performance and criticize Moore at every turn even before he gets a chance to play because they only care about supporting a player and not the team. Jake is still here but has struggled. It is time to see what Moore can do. If you can't see that then discussing it any further is a waste of time.

Like I quoted in my earlier post, Most BDJSs support Matt Moore fully now. My problem with that is that if you truly believed that Jake Delhomme gives us the best chance to win and is our best starting QB, why not support him until the end of the season. Why wait until Jake tanked our season? Any idiot could have told you Jake has struggled. It was time to see what Moore could do after the Eagles game or the bye week. Right now, we're trying to make lemonade out of lemons. I bold this part because you keep trying to suggest that something such as not wanting Jake Delhomme as our starting QB means you don't support the team.

As for the whole fan biz, I can't tell what you are and really don't care.

You think I would be on a Panthers forum if I wasn't a Panthers fan?

And the whole Smitty made Jake or vice versa debate negates the basic concept that quarterbacks and receivers make each other look good. All quarterbacks rely on receivers to go up and get the ball. And behind any quarterback are receivers who make them look good every time they make a great catch on a ball that isn't thrown perfectly. Conversely every time the quarterback makes a pump fake to confuse the safety or audibelizes to take advantage of the defense he is giving his receivers a better chance for favorable matchups which gets them wide open for an easy catch. You can't have one without the other. Lets see what Moore and Smith can do and then the debate can continue with something other than speculation.

Alright.

Cutler is a perfect example. Look at his performance this year versus last. The difference are a new system, different offensive line and different receivers which don't match up with his strengths. Did the Broncos receivers make Cutler? Did Cutler make them? Or was their a symbiotic relationship between the receivers, quarterback, offensive system etc which worked in Denver that doesn't work now in Chicago? That doesn't even include other issues such as a good offensive line in Denver versus a pretty poor one in Chicago right now. Most of you who engage in concrete black and white thinking miss the complexities of the game and the basic premise that there are multiple factors that influence each aspect of the game.

It's funny you would look this deep into another team and not offer this same analysis for our own. Like you said, Denver's offensive talent >> Chicago's offensive talent. Cutler is not as good as he was made out to be in Denver and not quite as bad as he is looking now.

[southcakalac]

Support and blind faith are totally different.