Inside the Carolina Panthers' three seasons of quarterback failure

[raleigh-panther]

2 hours ago, Vox said:

Great story by Jeremy Fowler of ESPN. Has some details from behind the scenes of Rhule's tenure in Carolina.

https://archive.ph/o6jZP#selection-14307.0-14316.2

 

I think any fan that knew anything about the NFL could have forecasted, and many of us did sadly, these outcomes 

…and worst of all, that the Rhule failed decision  would take his tenure plus 1 to 3 years to recover from, plus,  losing veteran players to make up for blown draft picks 

I believe, and I’ve been vocal about my dislike of Tepper, that he learned from this and while the next coach may not be Wilks, it will be someone with at least competency in the NFL as the starting point  and a more traditional alignment 

Time is not something we can get back nor can we change one thing about the past so while this article cements what we all knew, it’s time to forget about yesterday’s news 

Let's just fully support those players giving their all and a Coach, who as the saying goes, is trying to make ‘chicken salad out of chicken poo’ 

[Panther'sBigD]

I feel better after reading that article. Rhule is gone, Fitterer had one majorly bad decision and will have more say in how things go moving forward. Tepper is already showing that he's learning from his mistakes by voicing that he's open to a more even distribution of power between HC and GM, and it's clear he wants to win. I get that fan is short for fanatic, and a lot of you are fanatical in your belief that you could do a better job and that Tepper should have known how to be a team owner on day one, but three years is not long at all in the life of an NFL franchise, and we're already starting to see changes. Keep talking your poo though, since it's evident that Tepper lurks or at least has keyword searches going on social media. Maybe you'll fug around and get hired as a consultant.  

[Mr. Scot]

14 minutes ago, TLGPanthersFan said:

Hindsight is 20/20. Should of just traded up and we may have a franchise QB. 
Now we may have to trade up this year anyway. What a joke. 

I don't think Rhule wanted the job of developing a QB. He preferred to go with veterans that were already "finished products" so to speak.

Unfortunately for him, his evaluation of those finished products sucked.

[Panthering]

I don't like that Tepper can get his hands in stuff, but I do like that he's a bit of a maniac about winning and a bit cutthroat. Rhule was just not good at the NFL level, nothing new there. Fitterer was indeed a little handcuffed by Rhule having final say and hopefully can be a more positive influence going forward. Herbert was an obvious miss but I'm not going to hang that over anyone especially since we didn't even have a chance to take the guy without a trade. Plus if we had Herbert with Rhule it would just be another Panthers chapter with a generational QB and a very questionable head coach. 

[philit99]

Facts are that there are not 32 franchise QB’s in the NFL. There are about 10, the rest are game managers. It takes a great scouting department to identify potential franchise QB’s that are diamonds in the rough. Pat Mahomes was not drafted #1 or in the top 5. Josh Allen was not the first 2 QB’s picked, that distinction belongs to 2 current Panther QBs.

We need to ensure our scouting department is stocked with the right talent and eye for the future. The next franchise QB is out there, can we get him before the other teams do? We need to start there instead of listening to Mel Kiper Jr. Tepper please invest in the scouting department, that will pay the most dividends long term.

Edited October 26, 2022 by philit99

[Samppson]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I don't think Rhule wanted the job of developing a QB. He preferred to go with veterans that were already "finished products" so to speak.

Unfortunately for him, his evaluation of those finished products sucked.

Also if a team is willing to part with a franchise level veteran whos a finished product, they might not be a great product in actuality lol

[Mr. Scot]

Here are the quotes that I found most interesting from this piece. For those that don't want to read the whole thing, hopefully this gives you the gist of it.

(yeah, there are a lot but it's a big ass article)

________________________________

The time-honored NFL notion of winning a shootout was completely lost on the Matt Rhule Panthers.

The Panthers' instability and dubious decision-making, which sometimes included disagreements among ownership, the coaching staff and front office, highlight the direct connection between quarterback play and franchise strength.

Those with inside knowledge of the Panthers' three-season signal-caller saga paint a picture of bad deals, for the wrong quarterbacks, decided upon in large part by Rhule -- who proved to be the wrong coach.

Fitterer called Holmes, who apologized and said the L.A. deal came together quickly. "Came out of nowhere," a front office source said.

One team source said Rhule preferred to reach consensus with Fitterer before taking a plan to Tepper, describing the process as "collaborative." That differs from another team source, who said Rhule's leadership style was to "wear everybody out" until he got his way, even in big groups, and sometimes operated impulsively. In this case, Rhule was willing to overlook Darnold's well-documented problems with turnovers and accuracy.

"It was Darnold, Darnold, Darnold [for Rhule] that offseason," a front office source said.

"A quarterback has to feel like he's the most important guy in the building, and I don't think those guys ever felt that way," said the staff member of the benched quarterbacks. "They [Rhule and the Panthers] were always looking for something better. Zero patience."

Tepper had a predilection for tracking social media mentions and media reports on his team, multiple sources said. One front office source described his approach as "stream of consciousness," unafraid to vent to confidantes about his frustrations with the team -- including quarterback play.

Rhule hadn't wanted Newton two years earlier, but the Panthers had limited options and hoped his leadership would help a young team.

A source close to Watson said the quarterback thought "super highly of" the Panthers after a meeting with Tepper, Rhule and Fitterer. On the day Watson agreed to a trade to Cleveland that included a market-shattering, fully guaranteed deal of $230 million, ESPN reported the Panthers had balked at Watson's demand for the full guarantee.

A source close to Watson says that doesn't tell the whole story. Carolina was not Watson's first choice, though the Panthers were heavily in the mix at the end. Also, the notion throughout the league that Rhule was on the hot seat was a concern. "The uncertainty with the coaching staff was a factor," the source said.

While Rhule strongly endorsed acquiring Mayfield, a team source said multiple people in the building weren't thrilled with the move. Fitterer was open to it, a front office source said, and also supported the team's third-round selection of Matt Corral, a quick-trigger QB out of Ole Miss, in the 2022 draft.

A deal had been struck, but precious time had been lost in getting Mayfield ready for 2022. The continued presence of Darnold, who some team sources believed competed admirably with Mayfield in camp before suffering a high ankle sprain in the preseason, only enhanced the tension.

Even though multiple sources agree Mayfield pulled away in the competition late in the preseason, those same sources were skeptical as to whether Rhule truly considered an option other than the team's latest acquisition. "It felt like [Rhule's] plan was anyone but Sam at QB," a team source said.

The Panthers knew Mayfield had limited time to learn the playbook, and he proved to be a quick learner. But they were surprised by the accuracy issues of a player Rhule considered a difference-maker. As a front office source said, Rhule believed he had built a good team and that Mayfield would "stabilize the quarterback position" -- hopefully once and for all. That the move didn't yield results sealed the coach's fate.

Eventually, Rhule delivered the news that he had been let go, attempting to end his tenure on a positive note. He told his team how talented it was, and how he wished he could be there to see them grow and win.

Players were not exactly shocked by the news. Rhule was widely considered a bright football coach but had his challenges in the locker room, with one player saying the building felt "heavy," and teammates didn't always feel like they could be themselves. 

Though a team source said he did a better job relating to players in his final year, Rhule was hard on his assistants and sometimes clashed with them as a result, according to multiple team sources. And of course, the offensive football was far from good.

Multiple front office sources with rival teams say they believe Fitterer and his well-respected core staff will remain intact, seemingly giving Carolina a strong basis from which to rebuild the team. But so much still hinges on what Tepper does with the head coach vacancy, a move that will undoubtedly inform the team's future at the quarterback position and beyond.

If the next coach is part of a collective on key decisions instead of being given full personnel control, the outcome could be different, including at quarterback. Whether Tepper views that structure as a core piece of the organization's struggles, or whether he simply believes he picked the wrong coach, remains unknown. Tepper told reporters at a news conference the day of the Rhule firing that "a balance is more appropriate between a head coach and a GM." At the very least, he appears open to a shift in setup.
 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, Samppson said:

Also if a team is willing to part with a franchise level veteran whos a finished product, they might not be a great product in actuality lol

I'd call that one of probably a hundred or more things about the NFL that Matt Rhule just never got.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[Mr. Scot]

The conclusions I drew from reading this. Again it's long, but yada yada...

...

Rhule's heavy handed coaching and administration style basically wore everybody from players to staff down hard, so much so that it was a huge sigh of relief when he was fired. Heck, even some of his own handpicked assistants seem to be tired of him or outright done with him.

We'd thought that the ones Rhule brought with him might also leave with him, but it didn't turn out that way. Obviously this didn't apply to Phil Snow, who when you consider everything we've heard comes off sounding like The Manchurian Coach (if you get that reference).

Bottom Line: The "affable nice guy" image that Rhule showed the public seems to have been a total facade.

Likewise, the "everybody agrees and gets along" image that the team has presented to the public over the last few years was a massive lie. One source's description of how Rhule would "wear everybody out until he got his way" is consistent several other things we've heard.

Charles Robinson's description of the relationship between Tepper and Rhule quickly and massively going sour sounds like it was pretty accurate. This article also confirms that Robinson's mention of how close we were to acquiring Matt Stafford was correct as well.

As Joe Person had said, the quarterback decisions were ramrodded by Rhule. Pretty clear that Rhule was all in on Darnold (more Phil Snow influence there) and then a year later wanted anybody but Darnold.

At that point, Rhule "strongly endorsed" Baker Mayfield, then put him in a "quarterback competition" that now seems even more farcical than it did at the time since Rhule's intentions were characterized by a source as being "anybody but Darnold".

Regarding Herbert, someone made the decision to not even attempt trading up. We've heard that story before, with the decision being attributed to Marty Hurney. I'm not really sure I buy that explanation anymore. Definitely sounds more like Rhule, and then maybe that story was put out there for PR purposes.

Another thing that does come off pretty clear is that our first "all defense" draft was probably pretty heavily influenced by Phil Snow. We know from previous stories that it was Snow who started the fascination with Darnold. Again, he seems to have been the angel (or devil) on Matt Rhule's shoulder.

The article mentions "a faction of people in the building" who were against drafting Herbert but doesn't go into who those people were. Sure wish it did, though I could theorize that the "faction" might have just been Rhule (maybe Snow).

In that same time frame, it's mentioned that the team was "fixated" on Teddy Bridgewater while also confirming that it was Matt Rhule's decision to dump Cam Newton. Obviously Tepper agreed to it, but I have to wonder if he would have also agreed had Rhule wanted to keep him.

Speaking of Tepper, his early notion that "football people should always be right" is just flat out stupid. As Fowler points out, even the best people in the business miss on a fair share of decisions and strategies. I'd like to hope he's figured out by now just how ridiculous that idea is. 

Tepper's fondness for checking social media is also mentioned here (I wonder if he ever ran across our infamous Dr Lunker's account).

While Rhule largely ran the quarterback decisions, it was Fitterer who made the decision on the fifth year option, with the logic being that it largely worked out to a two year deal for 11 million a year. Tepper was hesitant but "reluctantly agreed" but was later angry about how that option "hung over the franchise".

Regarding Fitterer, it sounds like his relationship with Rhule wasn't exactly harmonious. He agreed with the idea that a change of scenery might help Sam Darnold, but the article makes it sound like his support of the Baker Mayfield trade was tepid. I've said before that his own public comments in the past about drafting and developing a quarterback and his pre-Mayfield trade  description of wanting to build around Matt Corral almost made it sound like he was pleading his case. Clearly, that fell on deaf ears.

Again though, all signs point to Fitterer being safe and continuing as GM. It also sounds pretty clearly like he's not going to be stuck working under a full power head coach anymore. My guess would be he's wanted to draft a quarterback pretty much since he got here, and will finally get that chance this April. Here's hoping we get that right because we've definitely been through it over the last several years.

The article also confirms that rule had a "lottery ticket" mentality when it came to quarterbacks. He's described as having "zero patience" and apparently just expected guys to just be able to perform. That's polar opposite from Scott Fitterer's idea that you draft a quarterback and develop him. Makes me wonder if we ever would have drafted a first round quarterback with Rhule in charge.

Mayfield's poor performance following Rhule's "strong endorsement" is what ultimately sealed the coach's fate. I suppose if Mayfield were due any gratitude from us, it would be for that.

And finally, it does sound like Tepper at least has a positive opinion of Steve Wilks. His comment about Wilks having to do "an incredible job" to get consideration for the full-time gig doesn't make a lot of sense, but then we all know Tepper sucks in a press conference environment, or basically any environment where he's questioned.

It's clearer than ever before that the organization was massively dysfunctional under Matt Rhule. I'd certainly hope that we recover from that quickly but it might take some time.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[1of10Charnatives]

2 hours ago, Snake said:

Boy how I don't want to read that. Not only did we pick 3 dud QBs, run off our franchise QB, but also not take Fields who is looking more and more like a franchise QB. Complete failure in the QB department. 

YMMV but I don't know that I would call a qb with 55% completion percentage and 5 TD's to 6 INT's a franchise qb just yet. He had a good game monday against the Pats sure, but overall....

Could change but atm I'm not regretting not taking Fields.

[trueblade]

25 minutes ago, philit99 said:

Facts are that there are not 32 franchise QB’s in the NFL. There are about 10, the rest are game managers.

This year, I'm not sure there are even 10. 

[Jackie Lee]

ugh Rhule

. The idea to trade for Darnold had begun with Rhule, who a front office source said popped into Fitterer's office after a defensive staff meeting to ask what the GM thought of the possibility.

 

One team source said Rhule preferred to reach consensus with Fitterer before taking a plan to Tepper, describing the process as "collaborative." That differs from another team source, who said Rhule's leadership style was to "wear everybody out" until he got his way, even in big groups, and sometimes operated impulsively. In this case, Rhule was willing to overlook Darnold's well-documented problems with turnovers and accuracy.

[BIGH2001]

Fatt Fhule 

[Mr. Scot]

2 hours ago, pantherj said:

Fitt comes off as spineless in light of this new information. Talk about getting dominated and pushed around.

If you came away from this article with a negative perception of Fitterer, I'm gonna guess you probably went into it having one already.

The only real negative that comes out of this for him is his choosing to do Darnold's 5th year option. Outside of that, he comes off like a guy doing his best to hold it together despite being saddled with a totally incompetent boss.

(arguably two of them, depending on your feelings about Tepper)