An analysis of what went wrong between Tepper and Rhule by Charles Robinson

[mrcompletely11]

Just now, TheSpecialJuan said:

Fitterer is not safe 

He is on thin ice for sure

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

He is on thin ice for sure

That's not "for sure" any more than your claim that Dan Quinn is at the top of a coaching search that isn't even happening yet.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[rippadonn]

1 hour ago, joemac said:

It's probably gonna be somebody like Dan Quinn.  Honestly I don't know how I feel about that...

I know how you'd feel

As you should. Another hook up culture hire won't go well with fans. 

People seem to think Harbaugh isn't nice enough to be a great NFL coach.

Spoiler alert : he already proved it to the NFL.

This hire needs to be merit based, not about who knows who.

Dan Quinn couldn't win in the NFC South it's obvious he doesn't need to return.

Edited October 13, 2022 by rippadonn

[mrcompletely11]

5 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's not "for sure" any more than your claim that Dan Quinn is at the top of a coaching search that isn't even happening yet.

For fugs sake dude dont make this a 2 day argument.  We get it, you like Fitt.  The proof however is in the pudding as they say.  Two things

 

1. If you dont think his job is being evaluated as we speak then thats on you buddy.  His job is not guaranteed at all and Tepper alluded to this and the national writers have explained why.  Read back and you will see

2.  I never said Quinn was at the top, I said it was reported that Fitt likes him. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by mrcompletely11

[raleigh-panther]

9 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Charles Robinson writes about the mistakes David Tepper has made so far as owner of the Panthers, and what he (hopefully) might have learned from them.

From Matt Rhule flop to missing on Matthew Stafford, Panthers' David Tepper is paying hefty price for lessons in NFL ownership

The article includes a few things we hadn't really heard before. It's a long but informative and fascinating read. I highly recommend checking out the whole thing.

Here are some pertinent excerpts:

_______________

As the cameras rolled, Tepper relayed his belief in a fundamental truth that would guide the ownership-driven carnage stretching the next three-plus years. All anyone needed to do was listen to what Tepper was saying and trust that he meant it.

“For me, everything is — I really do believe this — this league is set to be an 8-8 league,” Tepper said into the camera. “Everything is fair in this league. So if you have better coaches, better GMs, some advantages with the training, management process, analytics, whatever that is to give you an edge, that’s what you need.”

Tepper then smiled and let out a chuckle.

“And you need a good quarterback,” he said.

...

Better facilities? The $800 million Rock Hill practice complex was controversially killed by Tepper and is now embroiled in a bankruptcy fight between his real estate company and the city.

Better coaches? Following Monday’s firing of Matt Rhule, Tepper has now been through two head coaches and is on his second interim head coach with Steve Wilks. And if Wilks doesn’t permanently land the job, Tepper will be setting off to hire his fifth head coach in five seasons as franchise owner.

Better general managers? Fitterer is Tepper’s second, including Marty Hurney, who he inherited with the franchise in 2018 and fired in December 2020. If Tepper pursues a new head coach who wants his own GM, it’s possible he’s on to his third.

Better management process? Tepper has fired both Ron Rivera and Rhule in-season. He also fired Hurney with two games left on the schedule.

And of course, there’s the quest of better quarterbacks, which might be the most fundamentally problematic issue in Tepper’s short tenure. Not one has worked out as hoped. Not Cam Newton or Kyle Allen or Teddy Bridgewater or Sam Darnold. And thus far, not Baker Mayfield, either. That’s five shots at five starters in five years.

That’s hundreds of millions of dollars squandered in the plug-pulling pursuit of better, with nothing tangibly better in the win column to show for it.

...

First, there has to be an accounting of what happened during Rhule’s tenure, which is best described as a journey that ended with a dashboard full of screaming red lights. It wasn’t just one thing. It was many.

That isn’t unusual when you’re merging a new team owner with a first-time NFL head coach and a first-time general manager. Any one of those individuals usually breaks something as they learn. Put three of them together and it can turn into a carnival attraction with glass bumper cars.

Rhule’s tenure had plenty of those moments. There’s little doubt that he’d take back some of the news conference metaphors. Or that he leaves the NFL frustrated over coaching staff mistakes and the inability to craft any kind of consistent offense.

...

Compared to many NFL exits, it has lacked the bitterness and vitriol that often accompanies failure. That’s because Rhule and virtually everyone else knows that while the percentages of responsibility might differ from one person to the next, nobody is totally blameless.

All of that said, there is one underlying thread of agreement from the people who are most important in the Panthers' equation. Whether it’s Tepper, Fitterer or Rhule, they’d all agree that things might have gone differently if the quarterback spot could have been resolved. For a progression of reasons, it never happened. And that’s also the fault of multiple people and traces back to only a few decisions that undercut the franchise.

...

First: The Teddy Bridgewater signing was a financial mistake that was hard for Tepper to get over. He listened to Hurney and Rhule, and ended up feeling like he vastly overpaid for nothing more than a borderline average quarterback. The responsibility for that stuck to Rhule and never went away. It impacted a level of trust in Rhule’s judgement.

Second: For all intents and purposes, the Panthers had a trade structure worked out for Matthew Stafford during the 2021 Senior Bowl. Carolina was at the front of the line with a package that centered on the eighth overall pick in the draft. Detroit Lions general manager Brad Holmes was receptive to doing the deal. And then as suddenly as it looked like the Panthers were in position to close the trade, Carolina hit the brakes. Tepper wanted more information on Stafford’s medical history. In particular, he was concerned about Stafford’s previous back injury and wanted to be certain he wasn’t walking into another bad quarterback situation. That hesitation was exactly what the Los Angeles Rams needed. Rams general manager Les Snead and head coach Sean McVay seized on it to sway Stafford, and within two days Detroit and Los Angeles closed the deal.

...

Third: After watching the Rams acquire Stafford, the Panthers were prepared to trade three first-round draft picks and multiple third-rounders to the Houston Texans for Deshaun Watson in February of 2021. This was prior to the civil litigation being filed against Watson in March. It was a fruitless effort regardless. The Texans weren’t taking any trade offers for Watson at the time. Once litigation over sexual assault allegations surfaced, Carolina’s Watson interest evaporated and wouldn’t resurface until March of 2022, when it became apparent Watson wouldn’t face criminal charges.

...

In totality, all of this was a layering of problems that compounded over time. Bridgewater was a mistake Tepper held against Rhule. That played into part of the team owner’s hesitation over Stafford. And once Stafford was off the table and Watson was facing legal trouble, the remaining options were either veteran reclamation projects or rolling the dice on a rookie who might take years to develop.

While there were a variety of other factors that became issues during Rhule’s tenure — notably an offensive line that fell apart — none complicated or exacerbated the team’s problems more than the inability to solve a QB problem that existed from the very start of Tepper’s ownership.

...

Early in Tepper’s ownership of the Panthers, one prominent agent remarked of Tepper after their first meeting: “He’s a pretty salty, confident guy. I like him. He’s got balls.”

Viewed through that prism, Tepper’s initial investment in Rhule still makes sense, even looking back through the failure. It was a relatable East Coast guy who had made Temple a realistic threat in college football in a short span, and who then turned around Baylor practically on a dime coming out of one of the worst scandals in college football history.

...

Once that investment began to falter, which was basically almost instantaneously with the Bridgewater signing, there was a flip side to Tepper that we should have seen coming. We’ve learned this over the past three years: Once something is not working, Tepper isn't going to drag it around forever. Sometimes moving on from a bad investment takes priority over staring at it and wondering why it broke down. And let’s be honest: Tepper’s decisions on the back end have largely made sense.

Bridgewater has proven to be exactly the low-ceiling starter Tepper thought he was. If he wasn’t, he would have stuck with the Denver Broncos. And you can say the same for the rest of the quarterback merry-go-round of the past five years. Cam Newton’s health was washed. Kyle Allen was a never-was. Sam Darnold was fundamentally flawed and Baker Mayfield might be, too.

...

All of which leaves the Stafford moment. If Rhule someday looks back on his stint in Carolina and laments anything, it would be understandable if it was failing to land Stafford when he was in reach. That also doesn’t mean Tepper asked the wrong question. If anything, many franchise owners would be leery about giving up a consequential trade package for a player who had a significant back injury. Especially when they know that a lucrative contract extension was eventually going to be part of the acquisition. Hesitating in the NFL and erring on the side of caution can be costly. It’s how you end up with a fading veteran like Daunte Culpepper rather than a future Hall of Famer like Drew Brees.

That happens sometimes. The key is learning from the mistake.

...

We’ll see what Tepper ultimately learns from all of this. Much like the future pieces of the puzzle that he courts, he might want to go back and watch the final four minutes of the finale of Carolina’s “All or Nothing” docuseries. Maybe take a moment to ponder that car ride to Rock Hill, when everything seemed full of possibilities. Watch the closing scene, which featured a shot of Tepper riding off into the forest to blaze a path to a headquarters that went horribly wrong.

Better facilities. Better coaches. Better GMs. Better quarterbacks.

NFL history is littered with franchises that found themselves hypnotized by the track forward: focused ahead, insistent on plowing over one mistake after another. All the while, never contemplating whether they might have been opening a hole beneath themselves.

That has been Carolina for the past few years. Now Tepper has to find his way out of it.

_______________

Wow

A lot to unpack but one thing seems clear. The deal with Teddy Bridgewater had a much larger effect on the franchise than any one of us may have known.

We all talked about how Tepper badmouthed Bridgewater after that season.

Turns out he might not have only been talking about Teddy.

And yet, he allowed the Sam Darnold fiasco….

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, mrcompletely11 said:

For fugs sake dude dont make this a 2 day argument.  We get it, you like Fitt.  The proof however is in the pudding as they say.  Two things

1. If you dont think his job is being evaluated as we speak then thats on you buddy.  His job is not guaranteed at all and Tepper alluded to this and the national writers are explain why.  Read back and you will see

2.  I never said Quinn was at the top, I said it was reported that Fitt likes him. 

And when I told you it wasn't reported but speculated, you said there was no difference.

If you don't see a difference between speculation and reports, welp...

[joemac]

3 minutes ago, rippadonn said:

I know how you'd feel

As you should. Another hook up culture hire won't go well with fans. 

People seem to think Harbaugh isn't nice enough to be a great NFL coach.

Spoiler alert : he already proved it to the NFL.

This hire needs to be merit based, not about who knows who.

Dan Quinn couldn't win in the NFC South it's obvious he doesn't need to return.

LOL yeah you're right.  Not a big fan of bringing Quinn in.  It just seems.....mediocre to me. Now, Harbaugh on the other hand, sign me the fug up.  Hes a great coach, and proved how good he is with the 49ers.  Pairing Harbaugh with a QB like Stroud or Young could lead to big things.

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

And when I told you it wasn't reported but speculated, you said there was no difference.

If you don't see a difference between speculation and reports, welp...

You are going to argue semantics over this?  fuging Christ you are insufferable

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/10/11/carolina-panthers-next-head-coach/

 

I mean really whats the difference:
"Multiple general managers suggested to me that, should Wilks not win the job, Carolina General Manager Scott Fitterer would strongly endorse Cowboys defensive coordinator Dan Quinn. Fitterer and Quinn worked together at the height of the Seahawks’ reign and share a strong relationship, and Quinn, the former head coach in Atlanta, has helped create a dominant unit in Dallas. However, those same GMs believe Quinn will have better options than Carolina."

Edited October 13, 2022 by mrcompletely11

[rippadonn]

You guys are so much fun. lol. I love it

[TheSpecialJuan]

Tepper is gonna go after Sean Payton 

Sean is gonna want to run things and work under a GM that he chooses Jeff Ireland perhaps 

 

[Mr. Scot]

26 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

You are going to argue semantics over this?  fuging Christ you are insufferable

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/10/11/carolina-panthers-next-head-coach/

I mean really whats the difference:

"Multiple general managers suggested to me that, should Wilks not win the job, Carolina General Manager Scott Fitterer would strongly endorse Cowboys defensive coordinator Dan Quinn. Fitterer and Quinn worked together at the height of the Seahawks’ reign and share a strong relationship, and Quinn, the former head coach in Atlanta, has helped create a dominant unit in Dallas. However, those same GMs believe Quinn will have better options than Carolina."

And every word of that is...speculation.

You interpreted it as (your words) a report that Fitterer is focused on Quinn as Candidate #1.

It's not a report.

There aren't any candidates at this point (unless you count Wilks).

Hell, I could quote you a bunch of different people saying they're certain the Panthers are going to have a fire sale of talent, but...they're not.

That too was speculation, and it's wrong.

Hence why I said if you can't tell the difference between what's being speculated and what's being reported, you're not going to have a good grasp on what's actually happening.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[Jon Snow]

Hire Kevin Colbert as a consultant please.  And most of all listen to the man. 

[Mr. Scot]

Just now, Jon Snow said:

Hire Kevin Colbert as a consultant please.  And most of all listen to the man. 

Been on that bandwagon for years...

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

I'm not so sure. You should be right but the priduction under Rhule vs not is a wide gap. Add in the oline last year? It theoretically should but I have a hard time believing he wouldn't follow that trend of failure.

Hard to say, TBH. Stafford got mauled in Detroit fairly regularly and led them to modest success at times. I think he would have run that Brady scheme a lot more effectively than Darnold, for certain.