Henderson has to go...

[TheCasillas]

13 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Are you suggesting this is a negative?

nope. positive.

[Proudiddy]

1 minute ago, poundaway said:

Taylor looked  as bad as Henderson last year, and looked terrible in preseason this year.  If Taylor is your solution, I'll pass.

As the year went on, he looked more like a rookie, but earlier in the season he looked amazing, and in limited opportunities looked better than Henderson ever has to me.  

[TheCasillas]

11 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

If you want it to.  But again, I'm speaking to his entire body of work.  You're picking one game, I'm talking about all of them.  It could be argued that he singlehandedly lost the Cleveland game with what was one of the worst PI penalties ever committed where he had absolutely no reason to give up on that play.  Its one thing if you're doing it to save a TD where you just got smoked on a route.  It's another to do it when you're near your cover, have help nearby, and can still make a play.  Should've been the end of a drive, instead he essentially gave them 7.

I get it...  I've been playing and following football for 28 years.  It's a lot like OLinemen, the less you notice them, the better they're doing...  the issue is, Henderson's ONLY notable plays since hes been here are the bad ones.  No flashes of brilliance and gamebreaking athleticism and cover skills that made him a Top 10 pick.  I went down the list earlier in the thread...  his only memorable moments have been bad.  There have not been any impressive, amazing plays in coverage.  And no, I don't expect him to make those on the regular as even the best only get a few picks a year, but that's not even my standard...  I'm talking about PBUs, great coverage forcing errors by their QBs, etc.  

And whereas some have argued that he's fine because he's average, I disagree.  I don't expect him to be all-world, but I expect him to not be a liability, and more often than not he has in his year here, and I honestly, just from the ye test, like what I see more from Taylor than what I've seen from Henderson.

If you like him, cool.  I'm just not impressed and think Taylor is better.

you are cherry picking two plays to determine whether CJ is good or not. If you go back and watch footage from all 3 weeks, you'll see players are just not open against him. Most balls caught against us have been against Jackson, our LBers and our safeties. Truth of the matter is that CJ and Horn are bright spots in our defense, and the game tape supports that. I can go back and choose two throws from last year and tell yu that Darnold was the best QB in the league... but does that mean it is true?

 

Also, Taylor was not good in spot duty last week when Jackson was out. He had two blown coverages and was beat on a man route. Taylor has regressed since his rookie year. I am not sure why, but that rookie hype is a distant memory at this point.

[poundaway]

Just now, Proudiddy said:

As the year went on, he looked more like a rookie, but earlier in the season he looked amazing, and in limited opportunities looked better than Henderson ever has to me.  

Taylor looked bad against the scrubs in preseason.  He certainly hasn't shown much to convince me he's an upgrade to CJ.  I'm not saying CJ is great.  I'm saying Taylor isn't.

[Pimpdaddy]

...this group of coaches just keep slinging sht at the wall to see if it sticks....its what they do to try and hide their inadequacies...

[Proudiddy]

3 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

you are cherry picking two plays to determine whether CJ is good or not. If you go back and watch footage from all 3 weeks, you'll see players are just not open against him. Most balls caught against us have been against Jackson, our LBers and our safeties. Truth of the matter is that CJ and Horn are bright spots in our defense, and the game tape supports that. I can go back and choose two throws from last year and tell yu that Darnold was the best QB in the league... but does that mean it is true?

 

Also, Taylor was not good in spot duty last week when Jackson was out. He had two blown coverages and was beat on a man route. Taylor has regressed since his rookie year. I am not sure why, but that rookie hype is a distant memory at this point.

Well, I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I know you watch the All-22s and such (which I'm unwilling to pay the NFL anything at this point for anything), so you may have a better idea of every play than I do from watching the telecasts, but to be fair, I am not judging this off two plays.  I'm viewing it off every play I have watched him on or he caught my attention.  Again, I know what a realistic expectation of a corner is.  I know not everyone is a lockdown.  But he has unimpressed me.  And the examples I gave were far more than two plays.  He got benched in the Dallas game last season for getting torched.  And I know this is his first year under Wilks and there's hope because he seems to have developed a relationship with him and Wilks has such a good rep as a position coach.  A lot of people are hopeful because a lot of the concern about him was that he seemed uninterested and seemed detached because he was aloof from teammates and staff, which was a big part of why JAX gave up on him...  so again, I get it.  I wanted him to make it like any true fan would, but I feel I have seen enough that makes me believe he is not the guy that was so highly-touted with Top 10 pick ability.  I don't trust him, and I don't believe in him.  He makes for more boneheaded plays than game-changing good ones.  And yes, you can argue he's holding great coverage the majority of games, but if my corner is giving up one huge play a week and I'm losing games by less than 3 a week, I'm gonna have an issue with that corner.  That's where I'm coming from.  There are plenty average corners in the league that aren't making the bad plays that CJ has made in his year since being here on a fairly regular basis.  And there has to be some balance.  I don't expect anybody to have 6+ picks in a season every season, but if he is that great at coverage, he should be making some kind of plays on the ball.  You brought up the Giants game saying they didn't throw at him, but name the last time you remember him breaking up a pass when it is thrown at him.  Most I remember, he is in solid position but the receiver secures it anyway.  Sometimes almost isn't good enough and CJ's game seems to be full of almosts.

I still hope for the best, and will continue to as long as they continue to play him, but I just feel I've seen enough that makes me feel he will not ever be much more than he's been.  That's all.

[TheCasillas]

3 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

Well, I'm more than willing to admit when I'm wrong, and I know you watch the All-22s and such (which I'm unwilling to pay the NFL anything at this point for anything), so you may have a better idea of every play than I do from watching the telecasts, but to be fair, I am not judging this off two plays.  I'm viewing it off every play I have watched him on or he caught my attention.  Again, I know what a realistic expectation of a corner is.  I know not everyone is a lockdown.  But he has unimpressed me.  And the examples I gave were far more than two plays.  He got benched in the Dallas game last season for getting torched.  And I know this is his first year under Wilks and there's hope because he seems to have developed a relationship with him and Wilks has such a good rep as a position coach.  A lot of people are hopeful because a lot of the concern about him was that he seemed uninterested and seemed detached because he was aloof from teammates and staff, which was a big part of why JAX gave up on him...  so again, I get it.  I wanted him to make it like any true fan would, but I feel I have seen enough that makes me believe he is not the guy that was so highly-touted with Top 10 pick ability.  I don't trust him, and I don't believe in him.  He makes for more boneheaded plays than game-changing good ones.  And yes, you can argue he's holding great coverage the majority of games, but if my corner is giving up one huge play a week and I'm losing games by less than 3 a week, I'm gonna have an issue with that corner.  That's where I'm coming from.  There are plenty average corners in the league that aren't making the bad plays that CJ has made in his year since being here on a fairly regular basis.  And there has to be some balance.  I don't expect anybody to have 6+ picks in a season every season, but if he is that great at coverage, he should be making some kind of plays on the ball.  You brought up the Giants game saying they didn't throw at him, but name the last time you remember him breaking up a pass when it is thrown at him.  Most I remember, he is in solid position but the receiver secures it anyway.  Sometimes almost isn't good enough and CJ's game seems to be full of almosts.

I still hope for the best, and will continue to as long as they continue to play him, but I just feel I've seen enough that makes me feel he will not ever be much more than he's been.  That's all.

My apologies you are correct, David sills

did have that catch against him. Through 3 weeks CJ has only been targeted 6 times and 4 total catches. Aside from the long catch today, he only allowed 33 total yards. I just don’t think he should be getting flack 

right now. However, still plenty more football to come.

[Proudiddy]

4 minutes ago, TheCasillas said:

My apologies you are correct, David sills

did have that catch against him. Through 3 weeks CJ has only been targeted 6 times and 4 total catches. Aside from the long catch today, he only allowed 33 total yards. I just don’t think he should be getting flack 

right now. However, still plenty more football to come.

I concede those are good numbers and there is plenty of season left, so we will see.  I just think he has committed an inordinate amount of bad plays that you just don't see many other corners committing on a consistent basis.

It would be in our best interest if he is the guy those stats would indicate...  From the eye test, I just don't trust it.  We'll see.

[Peon Awesome]

It really depends on what your expectations are. If you treat Henderson like the 3rd round pick we gave up for him, he's been fine. If you're expecting a shutdown corner worthy of the top 10 slot he was originally drafted, he's not that. The one long pass to Olave he gave up was actually solid coverage with a perfect throw by Winston and great catch by Olave. Henderson timed the hit perfectly and if Olave had lost control from the hit, we'd be applauding Henderson for the timely hit. He had the boneheaded PI in week 1 and he lays off defenders a little more than ideal. But I still think we're clearly better off with him than without him

[CBDellinger]

Low investment for us.  Why jettison him at this point?  Cause he for burnt playing the toughest position in football?   Doesn’t make sense.  
 

 

[Basbear]

Just now, Peon Awesome said:

It really depends on what your expectations are. If you treat Henderson like the 3rd round pick we gave up for him, he's been fine. If you're expecting a shutdown corner worthy of the top 10 slot he was originally drafted, he's not that. The one long pass to Olave he gave up was actually solid coverage with a perfect throw by Winston and great catch by Olave. Henderson timed the hit perfectly and if Olave had lost control from the hit, we'd be applauding Henderson for the timely hit. He had the boneheaded PI in week 1 and he lays off defenders a little more than ideal. But I still think we're clearly better off with him than without him

[TheCasillas]

10 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

I concede those are good numbers and there is plenty of season left, so we will see.  I just think he has committed an inordinate amount of bad plays that you just don't see many other corners committing on a consistent basis.

It would be in our best interest if he is the guy those stats would indicate...  From the eye test, I just don't trust it.  We'll see.

Out of curiosity and in effort to keep conversation consistent, how do you feel about Chinn in pass coverage ?

[Proudiddy]

1 minute ago, TheCasillas said:

Out of curiosity and in effort to keep conversation consistent, how do you feel about Chinn in pass coverage ?

For the most part, he has been cheeks.

But, as a natural box safety, I don't expect him to perform as well on an island as a corner should.  I love Chinn and wish he was better in coverage because he has all the size and physical gifts to be amazing...  I just don't think he has great timing or instincts in pass coverage.  He really excels in the box and anything we get coverage-wise is a bonus at this point, or at least that's what I've come to accept.

[TheCasillas]

6 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

For the most part, he has been cheeks.

But, as a natural box safety, I don't expect him to perform as well on an island as a corner should.  I love Chinn and wish he was better in coverage because he has all the size and physical gifts to be amazing...  I just don't think he has great timing or instincts in pass coverage.  He really excels in the box and anything we get coverage-wise is a bonus at this point, or at least that's what I've come to accept.

 
 

and