Reasons for cautious optimism?

[rayzor]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I get all that, but as an NFL head coach you're still the guy in charge of what happens on gameday.

If you can't contribute something to, for lack of a better term, the process, what is your value?

If what you're doing results in wins, then that is valuable. Leadership and direction is what you offer. Rhule's problem is that so far it isn't working. He's trying this year with a better team of coaches under him. if he can't make this work this year, he won't be able to. 

This year he shows his value (or lack of) by what we see in the win column.

[Icege]

2 hours ago, rayzor said:

This year he shows his value (or lack of) by what we see in the win column.

I'm fairly certain that even if the win column is showing what the fans want that people are going to deny Rhule's involvement. If anything, they'll write him off as finally staying out of the way, being carried by his coaching staff, carried by his players, etc.

[Sgt Schultz]

2 hours ago, rayzor said:

If what you're doing results in wins, then that is valuable. Leadership and direction is what you offer. Rhule's problem is that so far it isn't working. He's trying this year with a better team of coaches under him. if he can't make this work this year, he won't be able to. 

This year he shows his value (or lack of) by what we see in the win column.

My guess is if they hit 8 wins and don't look awful in the losses, Rhule returns.

I would classify my position as suspicious optimism.  Yes, the roster is better on paper, but the games are not played on paper.  We've been down this road pretty much every year after 2015, which is the last time the results warranted the optimism).

Here is my problem up until now:  Rhule is paid roughly $8.5M a year.  That is John Harbaugh and Andy Reid money.  Rhule is seventh on the list of highest paid coaches this year.  Reid and Tomlin actually make slight less.  Reich, Harbaugh, Shanahan, Carroll, Hoodie, and McVay all make more. 

Each of those ahead of him or in the same neighborhood have shown some ability to coach teams to wins.  That is, steal games that should have been lost because they outschemed the opponent.  Rhule is the guy who is outschemed.  I don't know at this point if that can be learned for him. 

I think, based on what we have seen, Rhule and Tepper are both "org chart guys."  You know the kind, when they come in the first thing they do is "redraw the org chart."  That does not mean people are immediately sent packing, the structure just changes.  We've seen organizations of all sorts that were so poorly defined that they would inevitably fail, and one could argue the Panthers were an organization so poorly defined that they could never fully succeed.  The problem is "org chart guys" will redraw the org chart no matter what, and judge success or failure based on that how pretty that is to them because "it will inevitably lead to results" rather than the organization's actual results at its mission.

The reason I have that suspicion actually goes back to how the Bridgewater criticism was handled.  They never openly acknowledged that they needed to work on the criticisms he raise, which were accurate.  Instead, they (including the owner) circled the wagons to protect the organization and shot the messenger.  How many times in my 60+ years have I seen that, and I don't think I have ever seen an organization that did it succeed at their mission. 

If Rhule lets the people around him do their jobs and loses the "process" nonsense, the team can get to those 8 wins or maybe even a little more, and probably not look completely clueless in the process.  The best case is we chalk up 2021 to "sh1t happens" and move forward.

Then the debate can begin about whether a coach getting paid $8.5M a year and his best case is to stay out of the way is going to get us anywhere. 

[Tomcatn]

34 minutes ago, Icege said:

I'm fairly certain that even if the win column is showing what the fans want that people are going to deny Rhule's involvement. If anything, they'll write him off as finally staying out of the way, being carried by his coaching staff, carried by his players, etc.

I think if we make it to the playoffs it will be in spite of him, not because of him.

[rayzor]

38 minutes ago, Icege said:

I'm fairly certain that even if the win column is showing what the fans want that people are going to deny Rhule's involvement. If anything, they'll write him off as finally staying out of the way, being carried by his coaching staff, carried by his players, etc.

He's done nothing that would prove us wrong. 

[Wundrbread33]

This reminded me of those “I’m the biggest Cam fan there is BUT…he’s trash, always been trash, and I like my QB’s to throw the ball and wear wrangler jeans” posts. 

[Icege]

2 hours ago, Tomcatn said:

I think if we make it to the playoffs it will be in spite of him, not because of him.

 

2 hours ago, rayzor said:

He's done nothing that would prove us wrong. 

The rationalizations prove my point on this.

[Billy Love]

5 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

I get all that, but as an NFL head coach you're still the guy in charge of what happens on gameday.

If you can't contribute something to, for lack of a better term, the process, what is your value?

Exactly. He has no value! 

[rayzor]

1 hour ago, Icege said:

 

The rationalizations prove my point on this.

Has he shown he can do it yet?

[micnificent28]

8 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

 

I can agree on DB and WR but outside that our depth is very, very thin at most positions. 

I would say offensive line as well.. Most of our starters erving and our guard and center are backups now gives us options

[micnificent28]

7 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

I would say overall roster is probably bottom third of the NFL. But we are a bad team that has been rebuilding for three seasons. That's kind of the lot we have for the moment.

The important thing is that it appears to be improved over the roster we fielded in 2020. Now THAT was a bad team.

Our line was bad last year.. But those bad players who started and we're option number 1 Erving the Guard and our center are now backups.. Having our backups who started now as option 2 is depth to me now the best case scenario from last season is plan B. That's good. Same could be said with the return for the return of CMC. He's a def up grade but we skated by with Chubba... And I think foreman is better than him. Defensive line could be meh.. But that's about it. 

I think despite losing Reddick who was arguably our best pass rusher.. luvu should be fine.. Barno is a decent option littleton and Smith offer quality depth.. I think we patched the holes nicely.

Even darnold who was viewed as a starter as plan b is a upgrade.

Edited September 5, 2022 by micnificent28

[Basbear]

3rd year magic for both Rhule and others

In just one off-season they greatly improved the overall talent at QB and OL. 

DBs looking like the best overall talent in the whole NFL.

Right now CMC is healthy. 

Rhule hired real NFL coaches, about the best he could get with the outside view of his seat warmth. 

Burns looks different, no longer does he have the look of a NBAer.

NFC south looking doable with some luck

Mayfield is the 2nd best QB talent-wise in panther history

Lots of young talent- Moore, Burns, CMC, Colbert, Christ, Shaq, Djax, Chinn, maybe Brown, henderson, Ickey, SmithS

Team-wise deep depth for panthers standards.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Basbear

[micnificent28]

14 minutes ago, Basbear said:

3rd year magic for both Rhule and others

In just one off-season they greatly improved the overall talent at QB and OL. 

DBs looking like the best overall talent in the whole NFL.

Right now CMC is healthy. 

Rhule hired real NFL coaches, about the best he could get with the outside view of his seat warmth. 

Burns looks different, no longer does he have the look of a NBAer.

NFC south looking doable with some luck

Mayfield is the 2nd best QB talent-wise in panther history

Lots of young talent- Moore, Burns, CMC, Colbert, Christ, Shaq, Djax, Chinn, maybe Brown, henderson, Ickey, SmithS

Team-wise deep depth for panthers standards.

Humm just for argument sake are we saying Mayfield as a prospect is more talented than Kerry Collins... Because the evaluator in me would say no.

Edited September 5, 2022 by micnificent28

[Mr. Scot]

7 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

Humm just for argument sake are we saying Mayfield as a prospect is more talented than Kerry Collins... Because the evaluator in me would say no.

I would.

Collins had great size for a quarterback but I'd give Mayfield the edge in talent.