Official Panthers at Commies GameDay Thread

[AlphabetsEnd]

Let me clear up some things for you all. 

Mayfield was ranked #8 by PFF in the second half of 2020 through his injury in game 2 of season 2021.  He had six different injuries in 2021. We don’t know what kind of quarterback he’ll be now, but he has played up to top-10 level and he also has thrown a lot of interceptions. He also is on his fifth headcoach and coordinator. Maybe he’ll be a top-10 talent or maybe he’ll be top-20. 

Allen and Mahomes had stable situations and were allowed to develop. Mayfield achieved within historic dysfunction,. 

The Cleveland Browns were nowhere near the best or most stacked roster - in anytime time that Mayfield played for them.  In 2021, they had bottom tier WR room, a ravaged o-line and a defense that lost historic leads in 2021 until it gelled in the second half of the season, well after the week 6 fracturing of Mayfield’s shoulder by Watt Their elite backfield was injured all 2021. Stefanski is an unproven coach who cannot even take credit for the Browns lone playoff win, as he was in Covid quarantine. His game management was highly criticized by the fanbase and pundits. 

In 2021, the Browns planned to run with Mayfield if (and when Watson turned the Browns down). Only after Mayfield asked for a trade signaling he’d not play in CLE again did the Browns look to move on. 
 

In trades, the Browns were looking for 1st round picks and taking on zero of his 18m guaranteed contract. The Seahawks, Panthers, Colts all were in talks to trade, but the price was too high for a one-year rental, coming off injury. 

Can we now stop repeating the same tired mistruths about Mayfield. He’s gonna be your QB1 this year, so get on board, or go root for the Falcons or something. 

[Tbe]

9 minutes ago, MillionDollarCam said:

Allen played out of the gate but he wasn’t ready, it’s obvious that he was developed cause he drastically improved… he wasn’t a finished project when he started.

 As for Mahomes, jaw dropping plays don’t always correlate to success, we along with no one else were at closed practices, so we have nice idea if he was reading defenses correctly. He came from an air raid offense that is notorious for how simplistic it is. What we can say now is that he sat and learned and when it was his time he had success.

Rodgers, age has absolutely nothing to do with being developed. He could have been 40 and it wouldn’t have made a difference. The bottom line is that he had tools and his coaching staff worked him to harness those tools.

Those three QB’s all possess great athleticism and great arm talent. Those are two things that Corral also has… if only for those reasons I’d argue that you have to give the kid at least a year before evaluating him because of the deep learning curve he has coming from an RPO offense.

Mike Tomlin had some good comments on developing players. It’s not about what they can’t do but it’s about what they can do. If they have elite skills then good coaches can coach the mental side of the game to them.

As for Corral, it’s now up to Rhule to do the work to coach him up.

When I hear ‘develop’, I think the guy doesn’t play for a year or two. Yes, guys can get better but it typically only happens with real and consistent playing time.

Over the past 15 years, only eight quarterbacks who weren’t drafted in the top 40 have won more than eight games as a starter for the team that chose them.

Drafting, sitting, and developing a mid round pick into franchise guy is a golden ticket scenario.

[MillionDollarCam]

7 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

You are making my point about allen, even if he wasnt ready to play in his first year he did, and not only that he built on it

 

Mahomes could have played in his first season without a doubt, he had the best qb coach in probably history.

I am saying using rodgers as an example is extreme as it was 20 years ago and the brett farve angle

 

but the larger point is the vast majority of nfl qbs that are good simply came in and started pretty much from teh jump.

 

as to your last point, after this training camp and after this game I have zero faith rhule knows what the fug he is doing

I mean I think that’s where we are. Can our coach develop a third round QB or is our only choice to suck so bad that we get to take a Young or Strong type of player.

I’d venture that most probably don’t think Rhule will be able to develop Corral, so from there, I can understand the concern.

[Tr3ach]

48 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

how the fug does a 5th rounder look better then him and how the fug does Willis looked better then him?  Seems like we are really doing something wrong here.  And we gave up a fuging 3rd to get him. 

 

Not throwing in the towel on MC but when you look at the big picture something is off

Unfortunately success in the nfl and draft slot dont go hand in hand.  I'm not at all saying Corral isnt going to be good, just that I have realistic expectations of the time he may take.  I just think its crazy to say where someone was drafted is an exact correlation to where they should be at in the first preseason game.  Tom Brady must have got a huge amount of reps in training camp and all those qbs taken before him must have failed because of the coaching by that logic. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Tr3ach

[Tbe]

3 minutes ago, MillionDollarCam said:

I agree with that, I also don’t think Corral is some mental midget that we just trotted out on the field. I think the speed of the game was too fast for him and he wasn’t used to that type of pressure.

I said before that I thought Howell and Willis would preform better than most QB’s out of the gate because they were coming from teams who had ungodly OL’s. Liberty gave up 52 sacks and UNC gave up 49. Most of these preseason games feature turnstiles at the OL position because a lot of the starters don’t play. So when you have guys come in who are already used to that type of pressure they automatically have a leg up.

Ole Miss’s line wasn’t great but they were certainly better than the two above. So you add the simplified offense that Corral came from, the increased speed of the NFL, and the fact that he’s not used to running for his life every snap… it’s easy to see why he struggled.

The kid is not ready but it doesn’t mean he won’t be. I think his learning curve is steep but the bottom line is that he has tools to work with and at the very worst I think a good coaching staff could turn him into a good backup.

I agree he has tools. I just don’t think this league has the patience or desire to coach up a guy like than when it’s easier to draft another one next year.

 

[Carolina Cajun]

2 minutes ago, blahblah312 said:

I can agree with this in part, but the counter is this is the first game of preseason, he was working with JAG's on the road, and in general, outside of Cam's first game, I haven't really seen any Panther QB in their first start do much of anything, including Jake the Snake...IJS...way to early to form an opinion. 

fwiw, kyle allens first start was really good.

[blahblah312]

1 minute ago, AlphabetsEnd said:

Let me clear up some things for you all. 

Mayfield was ranked #8 by PFF in the second half of 2020 through his injury in game 2 of season 2021.  He had six different injuries in 2021. We don’t know what kind of quarterback he’ll be now, but he has played up to top-10 level and he also has thrown a lot of interceptions. He also is on his fifth headcoach and coordinator. Maybe he’ll be a top-10 talent or maybe he’ll be top-20. 

Allen and Mahomes had stable situations and were allowed to develop. Mayfield achieved within historic dysfunction,. 

The Cleveland Browns were nowhere near the best or most stacked roster - in anytime time that Mayfield played for them.  In 2021, they had bottom tier WR room, a ravaged o-line and a defense that lost historic leads in 2021 until it gelled in the second half of the season, well after the week 6 fracturing of Mayfield’s shoulder by Watt Their elite backfield was injured all 2021. Stefanski is an unproven coach who cannot even take credit for the Browns lone playoff win, as he was in Covid quarantine. His game management was highly criticized by the fanbase and pundits. 

In 2021, the Browns planned to run with Mayfield if (and when Watson turned the Browns down). Only after Mayfield asked for a trade signaling he’d not play in CLE again did the Browns look to move on. 
 

In trades, the Browns were looking for 1st round picks and taking on zero of his 18m guaranteed contract. The Seahawks, Panthers, Colts all were in talks to trade, but the price was too high for a one-year rental, coming off injury. 

Can we now stop repeating the same tired mistruths about Mayfield. He’s gonna be your QB1 this year, so get on board, or go root for the Falcons or something. 

I guess you told us....thank you for that detailed analysis...it sure has changed my opinion. I now think of Baker as the best QB in the universe thanks on the insights you provided. I am a much better fan now because of it. 

[MillionDollarCam]

1 minute ago, Tbe said:

When I hear ‘develop’, I think the guy doesn’t play for a year or two. Yes, guys can get better but it typically only happens with real and consistent playing time.

Over the past 15 years, only eight quarterbacks who weren’t drafted in the top 40 have won more than eight games as a starter for the team that chose them.

Drafting, sitting, and developing a mid round pick into franchise guy is a golden ticket scenario.

Okay that makes sense. I don’t necessarily think a guy has to sit to develop. In some cases they might… for instance I don’t think the Jets should have trotted Zach Wilson out there last year… but as others have mentioned, Mahomes could have started and the Chiefs could have ironed everything out as they went along.

Corral, I don’t he could start, I think the learning curve is very steep in regards to where he’s coming from. One reason that I think he should be getting a lot of preseason reps because it’ll be his only in game action this year barring some sort of disaster.

Howrver, I do like a lot of the intangibles that Corral possesses so I’m personally not writing him off yet and think he could develop into a good stating QB or at worst a very good backup.

[Tr3ach]

I get it, everyone is always looking for an excuse to blame Rhule.  The coaching staff saw where Corral was and knew he was going to need more time.  They knew it when they had him 4th on the depth chart.  They knew it when they let PJ get more reps to judge the rest of the offensive players on.  If anything this just shows maybe the coaching staff was right on where Corral was and the huddle was wrong.  Nah, I'm sure the huddle knows more and if he had gotten more reps he would be the starter by now.. Corral isnt ready.  It's going to take time.  Everyone who saw the offense he came from in college knew that and that's ok.  Stop trying to spin everything into the coach's fault because you dont like him.  Corral just isnt ready yet.  That's why they traded for Mayfield.

[mrcompletely11]

9 minutes ago, blahblah312 said:

I can agree with this in part, but the counter is this is the first game of preseason, he was working with JAG's on the road, and in general, outside of Cam's first game, I haven't really seen any Panther QB in their first start do much of anything, including Jake the Snake...IJS...way to early to form an opinion. 

jake led a second half comeback in his first appearance.  Dude showed moxie from the get go

[frankw]

8 minutes ago, weyco2000 said:

Howell was working with the same sh1t and balling the fug out, hell he’s playing with what seems like every cut the Panthers have ever made…

Within that is a truth some won't want to face. So far Rivera is a better coach than Rhule and it isn't close.

[4Corners]

Sam Howell is going to make a lot of teams angry they passed on him. 

[Tbe]

5 minutes ago, MillionDollarCam said:

Okay that makes sense. I don’t necessarily think a guy has to sit to develop. In some cases they might… for instance I don’t think the Jets should have trotted Zach Wilson out there last year… but as others have mentioned, Mahomes could have started and the Chiefs could have ironed everything out as they went along.

Corral, I don’t he could start, I think the learning curve is very steep in regards to where he’s coming from. One reason that I think he should be getting a lot of preseason reps because it’ll be his only in game action this year barring some sort of disaster.

Howrver, I do like a lot of the intangibles that Corral possesses so I’m personally not writing him off yet and think he could develop into a good stating QB or at worst a very good backup.

Agreed. Corral could get there if he got all the reps in camp and played for a year, but that’s not happening.

I always think back to James Bradberry. In any other scenario, that guy would have been drafted late and washed out after a year or two.

Instead, he came to Carolina and received full starting time with intense coaching. He eventually was the best corner in the league for a minute.

It’s hard to get better without real playing time. I don’t see that in Matt’s future.

[mrcompletely11]

9 minutes ago, Tbe said:

I agree he has tools. I just don’t think this league has the patience or desire to coach up a guy like than when it’s easier to draft another one next year.

 

I dont think its that easy to simply "coach up" and develop them.  Just like your last post says its incredibly rare a guy past the top 40 (not sure why you picked 40) to hit.  If developing a qb was a thing more teams would be doing it as good franchise qbs are the rarest things on earth

 

For the most part you either have it or you dont.  This is in no way degrading Corral just saying in general.   Scott was there when Wilson came in and literally just took the starting job so who knows, or at least I would hope he knows what it looks like and if MC has it he needs to be turning the screws on Rhule