Meanwhile in bankruptcy court...

[Puresteel55]

39 minutes ago, The Huddler said:

guaranteed 75% of the huddle is on psych meds to prevent them from screaming at their mother when she tries to prompt them to take a shower or mow the lawn. 

[Move the Panthers to Raleigh]

20 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Like everyone knew that if he wanted Deshaun Watson, he'd get him?

I know some people had this godfather type image built up like Tepper could basically have whatever he wants, but again outside of building a practice bubble and hiring an overpaid, underqualified head coach, has he actually gotten much of anything he wants?

Right now if anything, he looks like a poser.

The line “he’ll get what he wants” is so tired and just flat-out untrue at this point 

[Mr. Scot]

10 minutes ago, Move the Panthers to Raleigh said:

The line “he’ll get what he wants” is so tired and just flat-out untrue at this point 

Yep. Results say otherwise...

52 minutes ago, The Huddler said:

hes new

all you can ask for is does the guy want to have the best of the best and win? imo the answer is yes.  we will eventually get there. He will learn. 

I hate to tell you, but that's not guaranteed.

There are owners that have been in the league way longer than Tepper who are still running mediocre franchises. Have they learned lessons along the way? Probably, but they still don't have what it takes to build a winner.

We have no assurance that Tepper won't turn out to be yet another one of the guys who lacks that knowledge.

[Snake]

On 8/11/2022 at 12:17 PM, Mr. Scot said:

I mean at this point, is the shiny new Panthers facility that they bragged so much about even going to get built?

I'm in in serious doubt. 

[top dawg]

27 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Yep. Results say otherwise...

I hate to tell you, but that's not guaranteed.

There are owners that have been in the league way longer than Tepper who are still running mediocre franchises. Have they learned lessons along the way? Probably, but they still don't have what it takes to build a winner.

We have no assurance that Tepper won't turn out to be yet another one of the guys who lacks that knowledge.

And he's not guaranteed to fail either. 

My problem with your sentiment is not that you have your opinion, it's that you're trying to blur the line between something that really doesn't speak to whether or not  the Panthers can be successful, and insinuating that because you perceive it as some mighty great failure, that it's just another instance as to why the football team will be a failure--the franchise, the season, everything that Tepper touches in regards to the Panthers is destined to fail. You draw all these conclusions, or at least paint a pessimistic picture, notwithstanding that he's only owned the team for four years. Well four years may be enough for you to make up your mind about Tepper's ownership, but it's not for me. And, the thing is, he said that things would take time. 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by top dawg

[Mr. Scot]

8 minutes ago, top dawg said:

And he's not guaranteed to fail either. 

My problem with your sentiment is not that you have your opinion, it's that you're trying to blur the line between something that really doesn't speak to whether or not  the Panthers can be successful, and insinuating that because you perceive it as some mighty great failure, that it's just another instance as to why the football team will be a failure--the franchise, the season, everything that Tepper touches in regards to the Panthers is destined to fail. You draw all these conclusions, or at least paint a pessimistic picture, notwithstanding that he's only owned the team for only four years. We'll four years may be enough for you to make up your mind about Tepper's ownership, but it's not for me. And, the thing is, he said that things would take time. 

I've not said that the team under Tepper will always be a failure.

I'm saying that's what it's been so far.

Can he get better? Sure, but the fallacy is to act like that's somehow guaranteed.

People talk as if Tepper just needs a few years to learn the ropes and then he'll be great. That's far from certain. Heck, from what we've seen to date, I'm not even sure I'd call it likely.

There are plenty of NFL owners who have been at it way longer than Tepper and still run mediocre franchises. it's just as possible that he becomes one of those longtime "also ran" owners as it is that he rises to the elite ranks.

And frankly, at least for the moment, there's more indicators pointing to the former outcome than there is the latter.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[trueblade]

48 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

There are owners that have been in the league way longer than Tepper who are still running mediocre franchises. Have they learned lessons along the way? Probably, but they still don't have what it takes to build a winner.

We have no assurance that Tepper won't turn out to be yet another one of the guys who lacks that knowledge.

Several of us (maybe even you) pointed out that the closest comparison for Tepper when he bought the Panthers was (former Steelers minority owner) Jimmy Haslam. I would say Haslam in the group of owners who hasn't learned how to create a winner yet.

[top dawg]

17 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

I've not said that the team under Tepper will always be a failure.

I'm saying that's what it's been so far.

Can he get better? Sure, but the fallacy is to act like that's somehow guaranteed.

People talk as if Tepper just needs a few years to learn the ropes and then he'll be great. That's far from certain.

There are plenty of NFL owners who have been at it way longer than Tepper and still run mediocre franchises. it's just as possible that he becomes one of those longtime "also ran" owners as it is that he rises to the elite ranks.

And frankly, at least for the moment, there's more indicators pointing to the former outcome than there is the latter.

I haven't seen anyone say that Tepper is a great owner--no one. I have seen people say that it's too premature to draw a conclusion. And frankly, it's a pretty consistent group on here that outright says or suggests that Tepper is a bad owner, and not the other way around. And at many times they do so without context or considering the fact that Tepper is still a relatively new owner.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by top dawg

[Mr. Scot]

1 minute ago, trueblade said:

Several of us (maybe even you) pointed out that the closest comparison for Tepper when he bought the Panthers was (former Steelers minority owner) Jimmy Haslam. I would say Haslam in the group of owners who hasn't learned how to create a winner yet.

Heck, I might have been willing to believe that Haslam was trending in the right direction.

But after what happened with Deshaun Watson...Oy

1 minute ago, top dawg said:

I haven't seen anyone say that Tepper is a great owner--no one. I have seen people say that it's too premature to draw a conclusion. And frankly, it's a pretty consistent group on here that outright says or suggests that Tepper is a bad owner, and not the other way around. And at many times they do so without context or considering the fact that Tepper is still a relatively new owner.

Four years in, heading into year five, isn't premature at all.

Tepper is, as of this point, a bad owner. I don't really think that's even in question if we're being objective.

As mentioned before, the debate isn't about what he's been up to now. It's about whether he can become something else in the future.

And until we see genuine signs of improvement, I'm not convinced.

[top dawg]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Heck, I might have been willing to believe that Haslam was trending in the right direction.

But after what happened with Deshaun Watson...Oy

Four years in, heading into year five, isn't premature at all.

Tepper is, as of this point, a bad owner. I don't really think that's even in question if we're being objective.

As mentioned before, the debate isn't about what he's been up to now. It's about whether he can become something else in the future.

And until we see genuine signs of improvement, I'm not convinced.

That's your opinion. I don't  even know if you can reasonably count the first year or two. 

Tepper was a brand new owner in July of 2018. He obviously didn't  know what he was doing, and I'm fairly certain that he intimated as much. At the very least, he said that it would take time to build a good foundation.

I scoff at the thought of some of you actually believing that he'd come in with a scorched-earth policy, firing everybody as soon as the ink dried. He took his time, surveyed the landscape, and then began making decisions once he was comfortable with making them. I'm not going to fault him for that, and neither am I going to fault him for giving Rhule another year. Three years is fair to assess the direction of a franchise in my opinion. If others  think that two years is enough--that's them--I have no problem with that, but let's stop pretending that three years is an anomaly. 

Admittedly, I'm not entirely on board with this new train of thought that you fire a coach every other year--context and circumstances be damned! Some of us still do believe that being thoughtful before you make a knee-jerk reaction is a good thing--that patience is a good thing.

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, top dawg said:

That's your opinion. I don't  even know if you can reasonably count the first year or two. 

Tepper was a brand new owner in July of 2018. He obviously didn't  know what he was doing, and I'm fairly certain that he intimated as much. At the very least, he said that it would take time to build a good foundation.

I scoff at the thought of some of you actually believing that he'd come in with a scorched-earth policy, firing everybody as soon as the ink dried. He took his time, surveyed the landscape, and then began making decisions once he was comfortable with making them. I'm not going to fault him for that, and neither am I going to fault him for giving Rhule another year. Three years is fair to assess the direction of a franchise in my opinion. If others  think that two years is enough--that's them--I have no problem with that, but let's stop pretending that three years is an anomaly. 

Admittedly, I'm not entirely on board with this new train of thought that you fire a coach every other year--context and circumstances be damned! Some of us still do believe that being thoughtful before you make a knee-jerk reaction is a good thing--that patience is a good thing.

There's a very simple way to answer...

Point me to the things that make you think Tepper and/or the Panthers are going to be great.

Not opinions. Not maybes. Not hypotheticals. Not hopeful ideals. Not optimistic musings about how "anything can happen". Give me specific indicators that, in your opinion, point to future success.

My opinion is based on the frankly embarrassing lack of success Tepper has had so far tied together with one very problematic indicator. Tepper has shown an unfortunate tendency to trust the wrong people. Until he learns to be smarter about that, I don't expect things to change much.

You want me to believe that better days are over the horizon? Fine. Give me a real, valid reasoning why I should.

[CPcavedweller]

3 hours ago, top dawg said:

That's not even the point. 

Tepper is where he is, and he's not hurting. He made the decision with full knowledge that it would end up here--even though he could've personally bankrolled the project--but he did what he did anyway. That's not actually being a "loser", it's exercising power.

I can tell who here views everything related to money through a political lens. Almost every large company will seek to work with government to reduce the expense of building a new facility whether its through tax breaks, cost sharing, or any number of other things. Why do they do this? Why does government agree to this? Because the business is a benefit to the community within which they are seeking to move.

So it's mutually beneficial, in a non-pandemic and pre-recession period of time for government to work with private enterprise to get that business. Sure, Tepper could've bankrolled the entirety of the project and taken up a large chunk of his net worth in the process. Do you know the amount of liquidation necessary for him to have the cash to bankroll the build?

I really, really get tired of reading the demonization of people solely because they have money. Stop being envious. It's not a good look for anyone and it does nothing for you.

[top dawg]

46 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

There's a very simple way to answer...

Point me to the things that make you think Tepper and/or the Panthers are going to be great.

Not opinions. Not maybes. Not hypotheticals. Not hopeful ideals. Not optimistic musings about how "anything can happen". Give me specific indicators that, in your opinion, point to future success.

My opinion is based on the frankly embarrassing lack of success Tepper has had so far tied together with one very problematic indicator. Tepper has shown an unfortunate tendency to trust the wrong people. Until he learns to be smarter about that, I don't expect things to change much.

You want me to believe that better days are over the horizon? Fine. Give me a real, valid reasoning why I should.

My opinion  is that there hasn't been enough time to draw a conclusion. I don't  know if Tepper will be great owner or not, and frankly as to what is "great" is a matter of definition. He'll, what's "average" is a matter of definition. 

All of this is based on opinion, whether you think he's bad or not. My point is not whether or not he has been great, good, or bad, my opinion is that due to context and circumstances in what is four short years, we really haven't had enough te to say what type of owner that Tepper will eventually be. Either you believe that we've had enough time or not (which it sounds like you do), then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You obviously think that Tepper has been a bad owner and believe that this evidence means that he's more likely going to be a bad owner, so what else is there to be said? I don't think he's been a bad owner as much as he's been one that's learning.  I certainly am not going to draw any conclusion about his ownership based on a premier practice facility gone wrong. 

In another season or two, if the team has not shown progress, if Tepper doesn't fire Rhule, then I'll start questioning Tepper's ability. If he hires another coach without practical pro experience, who begins with a staff that is just as inexperienced, then I'll start questioning whether or not Tepper is a good owner. Other things could make me question his ownership as well, but, even still, I will always be cognizant of context. It's going to take time and a pattern of failure longer than two years before I declare Tepper a bad owner. It's probably going to take at least three successive years of competing in the playoffs before I declare him a good owner. The point is, it's going to take time, particularly after the bumpy road thus far of the Rhule era.

Edited August 12, 2022 by top dawg

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, top dawg said:

My opinion  is that there hasn't been enough time to draw a conclusion. I don't  know if Tepper will be great owner or not, and frankly as to what is "great" is a matter of definition. He'll, what's "average" is a matter of definition. 

All of this is based on opinion, whether you think he's bad or not. My point is not whether or not he has been great, good, or bad, my opinion is that due to context and circumstances in what is four short years, we really haven't had enough te to say what type of owner that Tepper will eventually be. Either you believe that we've had enough time or not (which it sounds like you do), then we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You obviously think that Tepper has been a bad owner and believe that this evidence means that he's more likely going to be a bad owner, so what else is there to be said? I don't think he's been a bad owner as much as he's been one that's learning.  I certainly am not going to draw any conclusion about his ownership based on a premier practice facility gone wrong. 

In another season or two, if the team has not shown progress, if Tepper doesn't fire Rhule, then I'll start questioning Tepper's ability. If he hires another coach without practical pro experience, who begins with a staff that is just as inexperienced, then I'll start questioning whether or not Tepper is a good owner. Other things could make me question his ownership as well, but, even still, I will always be cognizant of context. It's going to take time and a pattern of failure longer than two years before I declare Tepper a bad owner. It's probably going to take at least three successive years of competing in the playoffs before I declare him a good owner. The point is, it's going to take time, particularly after the bumpy road thus far of the Rhule era.

Should we be patient with Sam Darnold as well?

Tepper being bad isn't just a matter of opinion. It's based on objectively very poor results from his efforts, both on the field and off.

You can choose to say that might change. I choose to say my verdict on him will change only when he gives me a reason to do so and not a single moment before.

Yes, patience is a virtue. Patience without wisdom is an enemy of progress.

You have to be wise enough to recognize when being patient just isn't going to pay off.