Saturday Panthers Back Together Practice - Who’s Going?

[WOW!!]

1 hour ago, KSpan said:

Shaq also stepped into a role of being the #1 linebacker after Luke left following a very solid 2019 (which was after TD left, probably not a coincidence as his defensive snap counts went up by 60% as well), making it impossible to define how much impact Rhule has actually had and how much he was able to do just simply by that attrition alone. Donte's tackling percentages are right in line with his 2 years prior to Rhule, both good and bad, making it inconclusive at best and certainly not any kind of shining example of Rhule-specific development. This year may be more telling.

With respect to improvement the team threw an entire draft at defense, 15 of a possible 25 overall picks since Rhule took over, and has signed/picked up some transient players that have had positive impact (Reddick, Jones, Douglas, Gilmore) etc that improved the unit but were solid before arriving but also some that arguably did not meet expectations (Weatherley, Bouye) and others that have definitely ailed to develop to date (Brown, Gross-Matos). Tough to point out any Rhule-specific improvement in those cases. 

I ask you again, can you cite any specific examples of development that can be squarely attributed to Rhule and company? 

No you choose to negate data and actually fact..

Dante was getting benched and called immature under Rivera.. And now is a team leader and one of the most consistent player on defense.. 

Shaq had okay season before but was never a leader.. He was dam near on a pro bowl run last year before getting hurt..

And  reality check this defense was on a total rebuild 2 years ago with all the star defenders either retiring or getting old.. in 2 years they have molded into a top 5 unit when healthy.. You can discount this because you choose to give Rhule no credit but Reality is he turned this unit from bottom 5 to top 5 in 2 years.. Facts

Edited July 31, 2022 by WOW!!

[KSpan]

1 hour ago, WOW!! said:

No you choose to negate data and actually fact..

Dante was getting benched and called immature under Rivera.. And now is a team leader and one of the most consistent player on defense.. 

Shaq had okay season before but was never a leader.. He was dam near on a pro bowl run last year before getting hurt..

And  reality check this defense was on a total rebuild 2 years ago with all the star defenders either retiring or getting old.. in 2 years they have molded into a top 5 unit when healthy.. You can discount this because you choose to give Rhule no credit but Reality is he turned this unit from bottom 5 to top 5 in 2 years.. Facts

The defense is not top 5 in any actual regard, Shaq and Donte are performing as they did prior to Rhule arriving (backed up by the statistics), and you continue to fail to negate the confounding factors noted. Things like Donte maturing is pretty typical as someone goes from being a rookie to mid-career veteran and, frankly, Gilmore may have had way more impact than Rhule. Consider that in Jackson's interview about staying with Carolina, he mentioned Gilmore teaching him about being a corner (below):

https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/gm-report/donte-jackson-explains-why-he-gave-the-panthers-his-undivided-attention-in-free-agency

Quote

Sure, looking back on it, making the trade for Gilmore didn't really matter since the team bottomed out after getting out to a hot start, but his presence had an incredible impact behind the scenes. He helped all of the young corners, including Jackson and it's something that will forever change the way he sees the game. 

"The big thing he taught me is to just become more of a student of the game. I watched a lot of film, so I have a great understanding of what I needed to do but Steph just took it to another level. The biggest thing with him was just his mental; how he watched film, how organized he was with his notes, and most importantly, the way he practices. He practiced from a mental state. Everybody just likes to get out there and run around and Steph was one of the most athletic guys I've been around, but you rarely ever see him turn that side off. It's always a mental thing and playing a game within the game. That's the biggest thing that I learned from Steph and that'll be with me for the rest of my career."

In all fairness he does also mention the coaching staff in general being 'outstanding' but again, the credit to Gilmore is a confounding factor that make it a push at best; I'm not even excluding the possibility that Rhule and the staff have played a role, simply that it's impossible to know how much and therefore give the kind of credit that you're attempting to.

Unfortunately, you're the one ignoring reality. You continue to ignore my question about definitive proof that Rhule is a developer based on players that haven't been coached elsewhere and/or players that have made large strides while on his team, further supporting that you have nothing concrete to stand on. We'll see what this year brings but there has been zilch the last two to indicate that Rhule is NFL caliber.

[WOW!!]

11 minutes ago, KSpan said:

The defense is not top 5 in any actual regard, Shaq and Donte are performing as they did prior to Rhule arriving (backed up by the statistics), and you continue to fail to negate the confounding factors noted. Things like Donte maturing is pretty typical as someone goes from being a rookie to mid-career veteran and, frankly, Gilmore may have had way more impact than Rhule. Consider that in Jackson's interview about staying with Carolina, he mentioned Gilmore teaching him about being a corner (below):

https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/gm-report/donte-jackson-explains-why-he-gave-the-panthers-his-undivided-attention-in-free-agency

In all fairness he does also mention the coaching staff in general being 'outstanding' but again, the credit to Gilmore is a confounding factor that make it a push at best; I'm not even excluding the possibility that Rhule and the staff have played a role, simply that it's impossible to know how much and therefore give the kind of credit that you're attempting to.

Unfortunately, you're the one ignoring reality. You continue to ignore my question about definitive proof that Rhule is a developer based on players that haven't been coached elsewhere and/or players that have made large strides while on his team, further supporting that you have nothing concrete to stand on. We'll see what this year brings but there has been zilch the last two to indicate that Rhule is NFL caliber.

At what point did I say Rhule was NFL caliber anything??

Don't worry I'll wait??

Facts is Facts and the facts are both players have had a upward trajectory with Rhule.. As had the defense.. Specifically the defense has gone from bottom 5 to top 5 when healthy  in 2 years..

 

[KSpan]

21 hours ago, WOW!! said:

Shaq and DJax says different..

 

19 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

At what point did I say Rhule was NFL caliber anything??

Don't worry I'll wait??

Facts is Facts and the facts are both players have had a upward trajectory with Rhule.. As had the defense.. Specifically the defense has gone from bottom 5 to top 5 when healthy  in 2 years..

 

Quoted you yourself and you didn't have to wait long, eh? Claiming that someone can develop NFL players is giving them credit for being NFL-level competent in that area, unless you're saying that you didn't mean to try to move the goalposts here and do actually believe that Rhule didn't have much to do with their development after all. And once again, both of the players (a whopping 2) were already on that trajectory before Rhule arrived and/or had large non-Rhule factors that they themselves cited as spurring their growth.

Hell, Donte himself credits being a father with all of his maturity as opposed to being in the league:

https://www.panthers.com/news/donte-jackson-learned-the-hard-way-now-he-teaches

Quote

Asked this week how much of his maturity was based on time spent in the league, and how much comes from being a dad, Jackson's answer was clear.

"All of it is fatherhood. All of it," he replied. "I think my daughter, I look at her, and I think, 'I can't let you down.' I can't let none of my nonsense or none of my things that I don't quite agree with affect you. I can't be that loudmouth guy all the time. I have to sit back and just listen. And now that she's 3 years old, and she can talk to me, she can ask questions. Most of it is not wanting to let my daughter down at all.

"I don't want her to see me throwing my helmet down, or see me smacking a bench on the sideline, because now she can comprehend. Now that she has a little more understanding, I don't want her to be like, 'What's dad doing, why's he throwing his hat?' I take things a little more slowly and think about things more before I act. I'm more mindful of what I show and what I portray. I get angry. Everybody does. Football is an emotional game. Now I channel that energy other ways."

Just give it up. You have now spent several posts ducking my question about players developed solely under Rhule, instead sticking to only 2 players that very clearly don't appear to owe much to Rhule or his staff rather than giving actual examples of players that he or his staff have homegrown. Doubling down on the 'Top 5' nonsense is sad, as outside of the worthless yards per game statistic Carolina was outside of the top 10 in every other meaningful category.

Perhaps this all changes this year, but until it shows on the field your claims are nonsensical.

[Ricky Spanish]

31 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

At what point did I say Rhule was NFL caliber anything??

Don't worry I'll wait??

Facts is Facts and the facts are both players have had a upward trajectory with Rhule.. As had the defense.. Specifically the defense has gone from bottom 5 to top 5 when healthy  in 2 years..

 

*top 5 in yards allowed

middle of the pack as an overall unit.

Still an improvement, but not the drastic change people make it out to be. 

Also, list of defensive players that improved under Rhule:

• Shaq
• Donte

List of defensive players who have failed to progress/improve under Rhule (so far):

• Brown
• Burns
• Chinn
• Gross-Matos
• Pride Jr
• Kenny Robinson

I was honestly disappointed in the play of the defense last year. the first year I thought they played better than expected, last year was a let down. 

[Jackie Lee]

6 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

*top 5 in yards allowed

middle of the pack as an overall unit.

Still an improvement, but not the drastic change people make it out to be. 

Also, list of defensive players that improved under Rhule:

• Shaq
• Donte

List of defensive players who have failed to progress/improve under Rhule (so far):

• Brown
• Burns
• Chinn
• Gross-Matos
• Pride Jr
• Kenny Robinson

I was honestly disappointed in the play of the defense last year. the first year I thought they played better than expected, last year was a let down. 

9 interceptions! 2 from Gilmore who didn't need coaching and 2 from Shaq who was literally thrown the football from Zach Wilson/Matt Ryan. Reddick had like 1/3rd of our sacks and he's gone. Theres a reason why we were like the 25th option in fantasy football by week 15

[top dawg]

3 hours ago, KSpan said:

Shaq also stepped into a role of being the #1 linebacker after Luke left following a very solid 2019 (which was after TD left, probably not a coincidence as his defensive snap counts went up by 60% as well), making it impossible to define how much impact Rhule has actually had and how much he was able to do just simply by that attrition alone. Donte's tackling percentages are right in line with his 2 years prior to Rhule, both good and bad, making it inconclusive at best and certainly not any kind of shining example of Rhule-specific development. This year may be more telling.

With respect to improvement the team threw an entire draft at defense, 15 of a possible 25 overall picks since Rhule took over, and has signed/picked up some transient players that have had positive impact (Reddick, Jones, Douglas, Gilmore) etc that improved the unit but were solid before arriving but also some that arguably did not meet expectations (Weatherley, Bouye) and others that have definitely ailed to develop to date (Brown, Gross-Matos). Tough to point out any Rhule-specific improvement in those cases. 

I ask you again, can you cite any specific examples of development that can be squarely attributed to Rhule and company? 

Most of our guys haven't been in the league long enough to make judgments on, much less intimate that they aren't developing. They're probably capable depth even at this point. I'd say that YGM is coming along nicely. Keith Taylor Jr. Is probably paying above his draft status. No one is saying that the players will be All-Pros or anything, but there is little reason to say they aren't developing.

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/27/pff-panthers-horn-chinn-jackson-henderson/

[KSpan]

27 minutes ago, top dawg said:

Most of our guys haven't been in the league long enough to make judgments on, much less intimate that they aren't developing. They're probably capable depth even at this point. I'd say that YGM is coming along nicely. Keith Taylor Jr. Is probably paying above his draft status. No one is saying that the players will be All-Pros or anything, but there is little reason to say they aren't developing.

https://pantherswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/27/pff-panthers-horn-chinn-jackson-henderson/

On the flip side, there is no clear evidence that such players are developing while there are guys that have not met expectations or even backslid; I mentioned them in a prior post, and while no team will have 100% development of hit on every guy the clear lack of it here stands out. It's not even an expectation that they're going to be All Pros right off the bat or turn into amazing players quickly, just that there is some clear and identifiable improvement on the field, and that simply hasn't been there compared to the guys that have pretty clearly not improved.

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, KSpan said:

On the flip side, there is no clear evidence that such players are developing while there are guys that have not met expectations or even backslid; I mentioned them in a prior post, and while no team will have 100% development of hit on every guy the clear lack of it here stands out. It's not even an expectation that they're going to be All Pros right off the bat or turn into amazing players quickly, just that there is some clear and identifiable improvement on the field, and that simply hasn't been there compared to the guys that have pretty clearly not improved.

You're talking mostly developmental guys anyway from most drafts. I don't think that as fans that we can say with any surety that guys like Roy, Hartsfield or Stanley Thomas-Oliver haven't improved. They had limited ceilings to begin with, and we really don't know where they started from. Just because they may be perceived as JAG, doesn't mean that they haven't improved is all I am saying.