The most key addition may be McAdoo.

[CRA]

Just now, MasterAwesome said:

As opposed to...?

 

equate it to having a punchers chance.  Again, given the best player on the field by a wide margin was DJ Moore. 

there is some weird narrative I don't buy that you could of schemed more success out of last years horrific talent on O.   We had the worst QB in the NFL.  One of the worst OLs.  Large had a rookie RB that couldn't catch.  

Joe Brady sucked.  But a good OC would have sucked with that talent.  It's why Josh McDaniel had a worse O than Joe Brady in 2020.    You can't magically scheme solutions for horrible talent.  Too many opponents have the coaching and talent lined up against you. 

[poundaway]

3 minutes ago, CRA said:

  We had the worst QB in the NFL.  One of the worst OLs.  Large had a rookie RB that couldn't catch.  

Joe Brady sucked. 

But a good OC would have sucked with that talent. 

You should have just left it at  "Joe Brady sucked."

Sam looked worse last year than he did with the Jets, who didn't have a DJ Moore.  His best receiver there was Robby Anderson.  And don't blame our OL either, because the stats will show the Jets OL was trash.  He didn't get ANY games with a CMC level rb  in NY either.

A good OC wouldn't have run Chuba up the gut on 4th and short.  He wouldn't of thrown to Chuba on 3rd repeatedly after Chuba showed he couldn't catch.  He wouldn't have schemed up the same plays over and over in the same game that didn't work the first time.  He wouldn't have ran the same routes repeatedly.   He wouldn't have been late getting the plays in.

We don't know what a good OC would have been able to do with what we had because we didn't have good OC.




 

[Snake]

11 hours ago, ForJimmy said:

as @CRA stated the QB/OL helps a ton.  Leftwitch has Brady the GOAT with a solid OL and Moore has one of the best OLs with Dak.  I'm not 100% sure either is as good as advertised.  

Just making excuses. Especially for Moore because Dak is more erratic than Mayfield. Moore has spent many an hour hiding him in that offense with his schemes. Brady is a old man and Leftwitch has done a really good job limiting his downfalls while maximizing his abilities. Now if you want to talk about useless OCs look no further than Aaron Rodgers OC. That's about the only OC that gets a free ride. 

 

[MasterAwesome]

5 hours ago, CRA said:

equate it to having a punchers chance.  Again, given the best player on the field by a wide margin was DJ Moore. 

there is some weird narrative I don't buy that you could of schemed more success out of last years horrific talent on O.   We had the worst QB in the NFL.  One of the worst OLs.  Large had a rookie RB that couldn't catch.  

Joe Brady sucked.  But a good OC would have sucked with that talent.  It's why Josh McDaniel had a worse O than Joe Brady in 2020.    You can't magically scheme solutions for horrible talent.  Too many opponents have the coaching and talent lined up against you. 

If your position is that all else being equal, you can swap out one OC with another and nothing will change with the product on the field, then you’re basically arguing that an OC is inconsequential and meaningless to your offense. You seem to be severely understating the impact of an OC on an offense. Just like a good QB can mask deficiencies with a bad o-line, a good pass rush can mask deficiencies with a bad secondary, a good receiver can mask deficiencies with a bad QB, and so on…..a good OC can mask deficiencies with a lack of talent through his offensive scheme.
 

I’m not saying Brady should have taken last year’s offensive roster and pulled a top 10 offense out of his ass, but if Brady took a trash roster and produced a trash offense that lived precisely to its exact expected potential, then he’s essentially just a JAG who can be replaced by any bum off the street. In the NFL where we’re talking about the best of the best, you need players and coaches who can elevate each other to maximize potential. Brady was not that guy and is not that guy. Instead, he’s apparently the type of guy you hire to be Josh Allen’s QB coach (a top 3 QB in the NFL) lol. If that doesn’t tell you what the NFL thinks of Brady, then I don’t know what does. That’d be like hiring me to be the defensive line coach for a d-line of prime Julius Peppers, John Randle, Aaron Donald, and Reggie White. I mean I’d take that job, but I’d also be like “oh I guess they just want me to sit here and maintain the status quo and try not to mess anything up”.

[CRA]

9 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

If your position is that all else being equal, you can swap out one OC with another and nothing will change with the product on the field, then you’re basically arguing that an OC is inconsequential and meaningless to your offense. You seem to be severely understating the impact of an OC on an offense. Just like a good QB can mask deficiencies with a bad o-line, a good pass rush can mask deficiencies with a bad secondary, a good receiver can mask deficiencies with a bad QB, and so on…..a good OC can mask deficiencies with a lack of talent through his offensive scheme.
 

I’m simply saying OC doesn’t matter much if you can’t field a certain level of talent at key positions.  Not in terms of winning.  

Just take a an exaggerated example.  Andy Reid is forced to play me for 16 games and there is a madden cheat code that I stay healthy.  It doesn’t matter Andy Reid is a great offensive coach.  He has a fan at QB.   He would have his hands tied and all his great plays would be irrelevant. NFL teams can simply play all the wildcat, direct snap and power run stuff he would attempt.  He would have the worst offense in NFL history most likely.  

a good OC isn’t winning with Sam Darnold, behind a bad OL, and a rookie RB that can’t catch.  Only so much you can scheme up.  Because you will face good coaches….who don’t have talent issues handicapping the play calls. They are largely going to beat the team that can’t field a starting caliber lineup. 

[MasterAwesome]

4 hours ago, CRA said:

I’m simply saying OC doesn’t matter much if you can’t field a certain level of talent at key positions.  Not in terms of winning.  

Just take a an exaggerated example.  Andy Reid is forced to play me for 16 games and there is a madden cheat code that I stay healthy.  It doesn’t matter Andy Reid is a great offensive coach.  He has a fan at QB.   He would have his hands tied and all his great plays would be irrelevant. NFL teams can simply play all the wildcat, direct snap and power run stuff he would attempt.  He would have the worst offense in NFL history most likely.  

a good OC isn’t winning with Sam Darnold, behind a bad OL, and a rookie RB that can’t catch.  Only so much you can scheme up.  Because you will face good coaches….who don’t have talent issues handicapping the play calls. They are largely going to beat the team that can’t field a starting caliber lineup. 

I suppose in your example, if Andy Reid is drawing up 30-35 pass plays for you a game despite you showing time after time after time that you're literally throwing the game away, and goes into every game with the same rigid gameplan instead of even attempting to switch anything up, has opposing defenses who laugh in his face about spamming the same play calls over and over again to where the corners can run our routes for us, and is routinely clueless in the red zone across two seasons with two different QBs...then yeah I would be equally critical of Andy Reid.

Your argument would be convincing on paper if you were making it to someone who didn't watch any of our games and just simply read the box score every week.  Otherwise it's quite easy to separate the failures of our offensive talent from the failures of our offensive coordinator.  You don't realize that you're falling into the exact same trap as the few Darnold defenders who go "Well OF COURSE he has failed, look at his o-lines/coaching/receivers/*insert excuse here* during his NFL career! No one could succeed with that level of talent around him".  When all it takes is simply watching an NFL game to see Darnold skittish and crumbling in the pocket and routinely making boneheaded decisions.  Similarly, all it takes is watching a Panthers game to see the terribly predictable situational playcalling, the woeful lack of in-game adjustments, the extremely predictable offensive nosedive in the 3rd quarter, and the lack of a consistent balanced offensive gameplan.  Those are the things you can't blame on the players.  I've never talked about "winning", I don't care about that.  I care about how the offense performed strictly within the scope of Brady's individual roles and responsibilities.

Edited July 14, 2022 by MasterAwesome

[poundaway]

 

On 7/14/2022 at 12:46 PM, MasterAwesome said:

I suppose in your example, if Andy Reid is drawing up 30-35 pass plays for you a game despite you showing time after time after time that you're literally throwing the game away, and goes into every game with the same rigid gameplan instead of even attempting to switch anything up, has opposing defenses who laugh in his face about spamming the same play calls over and over again to where the corners can run our routes for us, and is routinely clueless in the red zone across two seasons with two different QBs...then yeah I would be equally critical of Andy Reid.

Your argument would be convincing on paper if you were making it to someone who didn't watch any of our games and just simply read the box score every week.  Otherwise it's quite easy to separate the failures of our offensive talent from the failures of our offensive coordinator.  You don't realize that you're falling into the exact same trap as the few Darnold defenders who go "Well OF COURSE he has failed, look at his o-lines/coaching/receivers/*insert excuse here* during his NFL career! No one could succeed with that level of talent around him".  When all it takes is simply watching an NFL game to see Darnold skittish and crumbling in the pocket and routinely making boneheaded decisions.  Similarly, all it takes is watching a Panthers game to see the terribly predictable situational playcalling, the woeful lack of in-game adjustments, the extremely predictable offensive nosedive in the 3rd quarter, and the lack of a consistent balanced offensive gameplan.  Those are the things you can't blame on the players.  I've never talked about "winning", I don't care about that.  I care about how the offense performed strictly within the scope of Brady's individual roles and responsibilities.

He's still on this?  He has all this grace for Brady, blaming the players, but apparently the blame skips over the OC to Rhule, but then doesn't reach Fit the guy who helps get the players.  It's magical how it works in his mind.

[Jared Patterson]

So, we really going to talk ourselves into Sam Darnold, then try to talk ourselves into Baker Mayfield and now we are acting like Ben McAdoo, a guy who hasn't been in the league in 3 years and only got picked up by a desperate Matt Rhule w no other options is good? Geez guys. 

[Jared Patterson]

Does this mean we are going to talk ourselves into Daniel Jones and Joe Judge next year? Is the insanity (literal Websters dictionary definition) going to continue with this franchise? 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Jared Patterson

[poundaway]

52 minutes ago, Jared Patterson said:

So, we really going to talk ourselves into Sam Darnold, then try to talk ourselves into Baker Mayfield and now we are acting like Ben McAdoo, a guy who hasn't been in the league in 3 years and only got picked up by a desperate Matt Rhule w no other options is good? Geez guys. 

We're still talking ourselves into Ron Rivera who's had 3 winning seasons in  11 as HC and wasted a bunch of very talented players potential.  Remember when we were excited by Norv Turner?   To watch Norv's last good O, you need vhs.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by poundaway

[Jared Patterson]

1 minute ago, poundaway said:

We're still talking ourselves into Ron Rivera who's had 3 winning seasons in  11 as HC and wasted a bunch of very talented players potential.  Remember when we were excited by Norv Turner?   To Norv's last good O, you need vhs.

 

Agreed. Always thought Ron was a fantastic person, but without Sean McDrermit he is and was trash. He is a good leader, but terrible x/o coach and terrible free agent/drafter.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Jared Patterson

[Pejorative Miscreant]

On 7/13/2022 at 10:42 PM, CRA said:

equate it to having a punchers chance.  Again, given the best player on the field by a wide margin was DJ Moore. 

there is some weird narrative I don't buy that you could of schemed more success out of last years horrific talent on O.   We had the worst QB in the NFL.  One of the worst OLs.  Large had a rookie RB that couldn't catch.  

Joe Brady sucked.  But a good OC would have sucked with that talent.  It's why Josh McDaniel had a worse O than Joe Brady in 2020.    You can't magically scheme solutions for horrible talent.  Too many opponents have the coaching and talent lined up against you. 

We have almost completely overhauled the offense this offseason. Not sure how much better it will be but I think on paper the talent level is elevated.  There’s a good chance the play calling is more pro level as well. There’s a lot of question marks for sure. Can Robbie catch again, can Chuba learn to catch start, can CMC stay healthy, etc…. 
But I am intrigued.  

[Lurk21]

Ben is definitely  an upgrade from Brady!!

[SizzleBuzz]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:17 AM, kungfoodude said:

Also he has thr major red flag of not being able to get employed in the NFL for most of his post-HC career, which is a giant red flag.

Nonsense .