Ben McAdoo Presser

[MasterAwesome]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

2 good + 2 horrible = what? 

I talked about Coughlin likely being ONE of the factors that went into his playcalling going off the rails.  But you basically can't mention anything without people going overboard on it.    I also acknowledged some others too like the fact he probably didn't have the makeup to be a HC yet, the brutal NY press that might of been a little to harsh, etc.  But now I am Coughlin super fan lol. 

Well, McAdoo tried to get OC jobs for the 2019, 2020, 2021 and finally the 2022 season.  Only the great Matt Rhule finally came calling in 2022.   I mean, that alone should tell you that league itself isn't willing to just isolate that 2 years in a vaccum in terms of him as a playcaller/OC. 

Ok I'll need you to explain your strange arbitrary math once again.

2015 OC McAdoo = 6th ranked offense (top 6) = "good"

2016 HC McAdoo = 26th ranked offense (bottom 7) = "horrible"

Your intentionally hyperbolic language is dropping your veil of objectivity.  And relax, no one said or even insinuated you're a Coughlin superfan.  No need to resort to hysterics.

[MasterAwesome]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I mean, that last part is damning enough. Not being able to be employed at your job for that long is a bad look. Great or even good OC's aren't on the shelf that long unless they want to be. 

Being passed over for OC roles is a part of the overall evaluation but a relatively minor one IMO.  I think it sheds some light on how he is perceived in NFL front offices so it's certainly relevant...but ultimately whether a team hires you or not is completely immaterial to your actual abilities. 

Ron Rivera getting hired by Washington immediately after we fired him didn't make him a better coach than he would have been otherwise if he hadn't gotten any job offers.  He still is what he is and always has been, and should be much more significantly evaluated for his actual body of work rather than evaluated based upon the amount of job opportunities that were available to him.  Hell, look who our presumed starting quarterback is.  Should Darnold get credit for managing to stick around in the league this long? Or rather should we evaluate him for his actual abysmal performance as a QB?  I'm guessing the sentiment will be "no because it's the dumb Panthers who gave him another starting opportunity", in which case how about someone like Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Jimmy Garoppolo, Teddy Bridgewater etc. who are still bouncing around and clinging onto starting opportunities?

[CRA]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

Ok I'll need you to explain your strange arbitrary math once again.

2015 OC McAdoo = 6th ranked offense (top 6) = "good"

2016 HC McAdoo = 26th ranked offense (bottom 7) = "horrible"

Your intentionally hyperbolic language is dropping your veil of objectivity.  And relax, no one said or even insinuated you're a Coughlin superfan.  No need to resort to hysterics.

I’m simply looking at the 4 years he was a playcaller.  I judge him off his collective body of work.

and based on the fact no one has hired him until Matt Rhule did….I think is evidence the rest of the league is looking the bad years too.  

I don’t think good and horrible as that hyperbolic.  I mean hyperbolic is kind part of message board posting.  So there is always some of that in it.  But the playcalling as HC is largely what got him fired.  No scapegoat existed for him.  Which is just a dumb move if you are young NFL coach.   need someone to blame for your early blunders. 

I really don't care.  Mike Shula wasn't a good OC.  It wasn't said a lot because people weren't acting like he was some great hire.  I just don't get how it is controversal to not be exited about Ben McAdoo.    I keep hearing about this great staff.  I think there are some great parts to it but the HC/OC/DC are all weak by league standards IMO. 

[kungfoodude]

47 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Being passed over for OC roles is a part of the overall evaluation but a relatively minor one IMO.  I think it sheds some light on how he is perceived in NFL front offices so it's certainly relevant...but ultimately whether a team hires you or not is completely immaterial to your actual abilities. 

Ron Rivera getting hired by Washington immediately after we fired him didn't make him a better coach than he would have been otherwise if he hadn't gotten any job offers.  He still is what he is and always has been, and should be much more significantly evaluated for his actual body of work rather than evaluated based upon the amount of job opportunities that were available to him.  Hell, look who our presumed starting quarterback is.  Should Darnold get credit for managing to stick around in the league this long? Or rather should we evaluate him for his actual abysmal performance as a QB?  I'm guessing the sentiment will be "no because it's the dumb Panthers who gave him another starting opportunity", in which case how about someone like Carson Wentz, Jared Goff, Jimmy Garoppolo, Teddy Bridgewater etc. who are still bouncing around and clinging onto starting opportunities?

Ron was an established entity in the NFL already. I wouldn't have hired him as a HC personally but he also wasn't a disaster. McAdoo on the other hand actually was a disaster as a HC. 

I don't know if he will work out or not but you don't find many NFL coaches that cannot get employed for the length of time that he did. It's definitely not a great sign.

[CRA]

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Ron was an established entity in the NFL already. I wouldn't have hired him as a HC personally but he also wasn't a disaster. McAdoo on the other hand actually was a disaster as a HC. 

I don't know if he will work out or not but you don't find many NFL coaches that cannot get employed for the length of time that he did. It's definitely not a great sign.

If Ron Rivera hadn't been hired to be Washigton's HC.....he would have easily found a job as DC.  He wouldn't of spent years looking for a DC role if he wanted one.  

[kungfoodude]

Just now, CRA said:

If Ron Rivera hadn't been hired to be Washigton's HC.....he would have easily found a job as DC.  He wouldn't of spent years looking for a DC role if he wanted one.  

Yeah, I am skeptical of the supposed "genius" of McAdoo. But, really we just need him to be competent and it's an improvement. I think we can all agree on that.

I am also a little perplexed by the crowd that has elevated his status as QB whisperer to almost mythical proportions. I don't think he would unemployed for so long if he was really an exceptional guy at developing QB talent. 

But....he just has to be better than Brady, so his bar is gonna be pretty low.

[Waldo]

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, CRA said:

I’m simply looking at the 4 years he was a playcaller.  I judge him off his collective body of work.

and based on the fact no one has hired him until Matt Rhule did….I think is evidence the rest of the league is looking the bad years too.  

I don’t think good and horrible as that hyperbolic.  I mean hyperbolic is kind part of message board posting.  So there is always some of that in it.  But the playcalling as HC is largely what got him fired.  No scapegoat existed for him.  Which is just a dumb move if you are young NFL coach.   need someone to blame for your early blunders. 

I really don't care.  Mike Shula wasn't a good OC.  It wasn't said a lot because people weren't acting like he was some great hire.  I just don't get how it is controversal to not be exited about Ben McAdoo.    I keep hearing about this great staff.  I think there are some great parts to it but the HC/OC/DC are all weak by league standards IMO. 

I couldn't care less whether you're exited (sic) or not about McAdoo.  I'm sticking to factual arguments so I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same and stop appealing to emotion in every response.  Every time I try to discuss something with you, you pivot to arguing against something someone else said instead of addressing my own personal statements.

I am simply curious as to how you reached your conclusion that he's a bottom 1/3 OC in the NFL.  To justify that, you suggested 2 "good" years + 2 "horrible" years = poor overall body of work.  I asked you how having a Top 6 offense is characterized as a "good" year and having a bottom 7 offense is characterized as a "horrible" year.  Clearly that's a meaningful difference, it's not semantics...I shouldn't have to explain this unless you're being intentional dodgy.  "Good" and "horrible" are not both hyperbolic - that's the issue.  "Horrible" is hyperbolic and you deliberately chose to characterize it that way because otherwise "2 good years + 2 bad years" sounds much less offensive.

[MasterAwesome]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Ron was an established entity in the NFL already. I wouldn't have hired him as a HC personally but he also wasn't a disaster. McAdoo on the other hand actually was a disaster as a HC. 

I don't know if he will work out or not but you don't find many NFL coaches that cannot get employed for the length of time that he did. It's definitely not a great sign.

Which I've never argued otherwise.  The disconnect is that I personally draw a meaningful distinction between him as HC vs. him as OC.  I certainly will factor in his playcalling as a HC in his overall body of work, but it's not a 1:1 comparison to me.  Painting it with a broad brush as simply "4 years of playcalling" without any distinction whatsoever comes off as extremely reductive and disingenuous to me.  That's what CRA is doing that I am pushing back on - he's weighing them equally as "HC w/ playcalling duties" = "OC".  Literally zero difference between the two.  Hell, if anything, he's weighing "HC w/ playcalling duties" more heavily than OC which is super weird.  OC's do a hell of a lot more with the offense than just calling plays, and head coaches do a hell of a lot more with the team outside of playcalling.  Playcalling is one tiny blip in the overlap of the "OC vs. HC w/ playcalling duties" venn diagram.

[CRA]

30 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

I couldn't care less whether you're exited (sic) or not about McAdoo.  I'm sticking to factual arguments so I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same and stop appealing to emotion in every response.  Every time I try to discuss something with you, you pivot to arguing against something someone else said instead of addressing my own personal statements.

I am simply curious as to how you reached your conclusion that he's a bottom 1/3 OC in the NFL.  To justify that, you suggested 2 "good" years + 2 "horrible" years = poor overall body of work.  I asked you how having a Top 6 offense is characterized as a "good" year and having a bottom 7 offense is characterized as a "horrible" year.  Clearly that's a meaningful difference, it's not semantics...I shouldn't have to explain this unless you're being intentional dodgy.  "Good" and "horrible" are not both hyperbolic - that's the issue.  "Horrible" is hyperbolic and you deliberately chose to characterize it that way because otherwise "2 good years + 2 bad years" sounds much less offensive.

He was the playcaller for 4 seasons in NY.  That’s factual.  I use all 4 years as a playcaller to judge his playcalling ability. 

Ben McAdoo has been searching for an OC job for years and years since NY.  And only bumbling Matt Rhule would finally bring him in.  And Rhule probably is considered the weakest HC in the NFL right now.  Or one of them if you want to be generous. If you want to argue Ben McAdoo isn’t a bottom 3rd OC?  Have it.  I’m not going to go searching for proof that Rhule, McAdoo and Snow wouldn’t fall into the bottom 3rd vs their peers when looking at all 32 teams.   It’s subjective.  You can’t prove he isn’t.  That’s subjective too. 

How did you view Mike Shula in 2015? Would you call him excellent just because the Panthers had the #1 scoring O in all the NFL? I wouldn’t.  Seems like that is your argument for McAdoo.  And I call McAdoo’s pure OC years good.  The team sucked.  They had some inflated offensive numbers IMO because Eli (2 time Super Bowl champion) got to air it out for 4 straight quarters all season in losing efforts.

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

Which I've never argued otherwise.  The disconnect is that I personally draw a meaningful distinction between him as HC vs. him as OC.  I certainly will factor in his playcalling as a HC in his overall body of work, but it's not a 1:1 comparison to me.  Painting it with a broad brush as simply "4 years of playcalling" without any distinction whatsoever comes off as extremely reductive and disingenuous to me.  That's what CRA is doing that I am pushing back on - he's weighing them equally as "HC w/ playcalling duties" = "OC".  Literally zero difference between the two.  Hell, if anything, he's weighing "HC w/ playcalling duties" more heavily than OC which is super weird.  OC's do a hell of a lot more with the offense than just calling plays, and head coaches do a hell of a lot more with the team outside of playcalling.  Playcalling is one tiny blip in the overlap of the "OC vs. HC w/ playcalling duties" venn diagram.

Yeah but I am not taking up either side of you guys argument on the playcalling. 

I am just pointing out the lack of ability to be employed in the NFL in any meaningful capacity outside of one year as a QB Coach in Jacksonville in 2020 since his firing in 2017 is bad. 

That doesn't happen to good or great coaches. Honestly, it isn't common for mediocre coaches. It is common for bad coaches, though. 

The NFL is kind of telegraphing what they think of him, IMO.

We will find out soon enough. I know that I won't give him the same rope as I gave Brady. He doesn't have any "learning" bubble. He needs to come in and produce right away. 

[GRWatcher]

I'll reserve judgement on McAdoo until I see our offense come out after halftime with adjustments that the defense didn't anticipate.

[MasterAwesome]

24 minutes ago, CRA said:

And call McAdoo’s pure OC years only good.  The team sucked.  They had some inflated offensive numbers IMO because Eli (2 time Super Bowl champion) got to air it out for 4 straight quarters all season in losing efforts.

Such a weird statement....did you even bother looking any of this up before you formulated this opinion?  We're talking about the 2015 Giants who lost 8 of their 10 games by one score?  That's the team who racked up a bunch of garbage stats to inflate their offensive performance?  Yeah, the team probably sucked cause their defense was ranked 30th/32nd (points/yardage).  I'm sure you will explain to me how that was McAdoo's fault though.  And are we talking about the same "2-time Super Bowl champion Eli" (lol) who went for:

-7766 yards, 44 TDs, 42 INTs, 58.7% completion, 78.3 QB rating in the 2 seasons prior to McAdoo

-8842 yards, 65 TDs, 28 INTs, 62.9% completion, 92.9 QB rating in the 2 seasons under OC McAdoo

That Super Bowl champion Eli?  I would be thrilled if we had 1/10th of this turnaround in QB play with McAdoo.

[MasterAwesome]

49 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah but I am not taking up either side of you guys argument on the playcalling. 

I am just pointing out the lack of ability to be employed in the NFL in any meaningful capacity outside of one year as a QB Coach in Jacksonville in 2020 since his firing in 2017 is bad. 

That doesn't happen to good or great coaches. Honestly, it isn't common for mediocre coaches. It is common for bad coaches, though. 

The NFL is kind of telegraphing what they think of him, IMO.

We will find out soon enough. I know that I won't give him the same rope as I gave Brady. He doesn't have any "learning" bubble. He needs to come in and produce right away. 

Fair enough.  Yes I think it's bad, but I also think emphasizing "what NFL front offices think of you" over actual NFL production puts you in weird territory that leads to conclusions like Sam Darnold (2nd and 4th round pick trade value) > Gardner Minshew (6th round pick trade value) which I think most people would argue is laughable.  And again, if we cut Sam Darnold tomorrow and a team signs him as their back-up QB it isn't gonna make me think any more highly of Darnold than if we cut him tomorrow and nobody picks him up.