Ben McAdoo Presser

[MasterAwesome]

4 hours ago, CRA said:

I brought up Coughlin because he was a long time and stable coach in the NFL.  Giants didn’t have a losing season from 2005 to 2012 under him.   Had 4 straight winning seasons in freaking Jacksonville.  

Coughlin is flawed and not great.  Stable? Yes.  And an offensive guy.  Was exploring variables in regards to the Giants as to why he was brought up

the narrative in the Giants overly predictable playcalling only appeared when McAdoo had no boss.   I’m sure it wasn’t just one thing that lead to it getting so bad.  
 
 

Let me ask you once again:

Given the fact that Coughlin + Gilbride produced the 28th ranked offense in 2013, Coughlin + MacAdoo produced the 13th ranked offense in 2014, and Coughlin + MacAdoo produced the 6th ranked offense in 2015…your logical conclusion is that Coughlin was probably the X factor responsible for their offensive turnaround? If Coughlin is pulling the strings for their offense, you would see consistent results from year to year…not a clear drastic improvement from one OC to the next. It’s funny you bring up the term “variables” - are you familiar with the concept of a control variable? Hint: it’s Coughlin.

 

As for your last paragraph…”the narrative in the Giants overly predictable playcalling only appeared when McAdoo was in over his head trying to be the head coach and offensive playcaller”. It’s actually super simple. If I’m a full-time dishwasher at a busy restaurant and my manager comes up to me and says “hey I’m gonna need you to keep washing the dishes but also wait tables cause we’re understaffed, even though you’ve never waited tables before” - guess what, I’m probably not gonna do such a great job washing dishes OR waiting tables. You should look into something called “Occam’s Razor”.

[MasterAwesome]

2 hours ago, stbugs said:

He also had the benefit of OBJ barnstorming the league as a rookie in his first year as OC. In McAdoo’s only year as HC/OC without a healthy OBJ, his offense was 31st and scored 14 ppg in the 14 games OBJ didn’t start. We don’t really know exactly what we are getting. I’m hoping it will be an improvement over Brady and more importantly a good development of Corral. Winning this year is secondary to Corral’s development or finding out if we’ll need to go QB in 2023. We just need that answer to happen this year.

You realize even with a healthy OBJ in his first year as HC/OC, his offense was 26th in PPG right? I’m not sure why you even need to go into the “without a healthy OBJ” argument. His offenses didn’t perform well while he was the head coach, with or without OBJ. Which is why I’m glad we didn’t hire him as our head coach.

[Panthers Rhule]

13 hours ago, 4Corners said:

Wow nice lettuce, Ben. You look like a 50 year old JTT with type 2 diabetes and just overcame a porn addiction 

So, we're body shaming our staff now because all the other attacks just got too boring?

[CRA]

8 hours ago, MasterAwesome said:

Let me ask you once again:

Given the fact that Coughlin + Gilbride produced the 28th ranked offense in 2013, Coughlin + MacAdoo produced the 13th ranked offense in 2014, and Coughlin + MacAdoo produced the 6th ranked offense in 2015…your logical conclusion is that Coughlin was probably the X factor responsible for their offensive turnaround? If Coughlin is pulling the strings for their offense, you would see consistent results from year to year…not a clear drastic improvement from one OC to the next. It’s funny you bring up the term “variables” - are you familiar with the concept of a control variable? Hint: it’s Coughlin.

 

As for your last paragraph…”the narrative in the Giants overly predictable playcalling only appeared when McAdoo was in over his head trying to be the head coach and offensive playcaller”. It’s actually super simple. If I’m a full-time dishwasher at a busy restaurant and my manager comes up to me and says “hey I’m gonna need you to keep washing the dishes but also wait tables cause we’re understaffed, even though you’ve never waited tables before” - guess what, I’m probably not gonna do such a great job washing dishes OR waiting tables. You should look into something called “Occam’s Razor”.

McAdoo's first OC job was under a long time and stable offensive oriented HC.  I'm pretty sure that HC was pretty involved.  Why wouldn't an expeirenced offensive HC be fairly involved with a brand spanking new OC debuting. 

And McAdoo's playcalling looked pretty bad in year 3 and 4 without that supervision/oversight. 

I mean, that isn't a radical view.  That Coughlin likely was a factor in why McAdoo's playcalling took such a drastic nosedive.  Not dimissing him taking on too much but most answers are complex and involve a multitude of reasons that factor. 

and Coughlin's teams overall were pretty consistent in the NFL.  And overly simplistic playcalls weren't the signature.   That's was when McAdoo had no supervision.    

*and those Coughlin teams at the end likely had inflated offensive stats because they lost so many games.  They never won more than 6 when McAdoo arrived to be OC and were always in catchup mode.   So those are numbers are going to jive up exactly with a lot of his prior teams that didn't lose. 

[CRA]

12 minutes ago, Pakmeng said:

Simplistic playcalls were exactly what his signature was.

 

Coughlin was well known for his simple schemes. It was his calling card and his players talked about how that was why he was successful against the Patriots. They didn't try to outsmart. They played physical and executed.

 

 

Coughlin was simply old school from a different era than the modern day NFL O.  But overtly predictable playcalls weren't actually his knock.  People called Shula in Carolina overtly simple.  He really wasn't.  It was just boring to watch. 

Again, I just don't see the fixation of trying to hype McAdoo into some great hire. He isn't a great hire.  Better than Joe Brady isn't much of a bar.  We have a bottom 1/3 OC and DC IMO.  Same w/ the HC.  Yet people are calling this a great staff.  It's a better staff.  It's still subpar. 

 

[iamhubby1]

20 hours ago, ThPantherFan said:

??????

 

He thinks he's not only edgy, but funny too. It is a dangerous combination when in the wrong hands. As we just saw.

[MasterAwesome]

58 minutes ago, CRA said:

McAdoo's first OC job was under a long time and stable offensive oriented HC.  I'm pretty sure that HC was pretty involved.  Why wouldn't an expeirenced offensive HC be fairly involved with a brand spanking new OC debuting. 

And McAdoo's playcalling looked pretty bad in year 3 and 4 without that supervision/oversight. 

I mean, that isn't a radical view.  That Coughlin likely was a factor in why McAdoo's playcalling took such a drastic nosedive.  Not dimissing him taking on too much but most answers are complex and involve a multitude of reasons that factor. 

and Coughlin's teams overall were pretty consistent in the NFL.  And overly simplistic playcalls weren't the signature.   That's was when McAdoo had no supervision.    

*and those Coughlin teams at the end likely had inflated offensive stats because they lost so many games.  They never won more than 6 when McAdoo arrived to be OC and were always in catchup mode.   So those are numbers are going to jive up exactly with a lot of his prior teams that didn't lose. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/15/sports/football/new-york-giants-hire-ben-mcadoo-a-coughlin-assistant-but-his-own-man.html

Quote

McAdoo, for example, ran his own offense in each of the last two years. Conspicuously, he did not run something drawn from the experiences of Coughlin, who has had a long career as an offense-minded coach. McAdoo’s ideas were his, based on play-calling tenets he had learned elsewhere.

 

And what was the source of McAdoo’s philosophy?

He is a disciple of Mike McCarthy, the Green Bay Packers’ coach. Until two years ago, when McCarthy let McAdoo flee to join the Giants, McCarthy had been the predominant guiding force in McAdoo’s career since 2004. McCarthy took McAdoo with him on an N.F.L. journey from New Orleans to San Francisco and finally to Green Bay, where McAdoo worked for eight seasons.

https://nypost.com/2014/10/07/an-inside-look-at-why-and-how-coughlin-turned-over-the-reins/

Quote

At the age of 68, in his 20th year as an NFL head coach, Coughlin has given up his offense, scrapped it and replaced it with a new approach brought in from, of all places, historic Green Bay, delivered by a 37-year old who had never before coordinated anything, never before created his own offense.

Quote

This is more dramatic because it cuts to the heart of Coughlin’s football identity. This season, with the offense “broken’’ in the terse assessment of co-owner John Mara, Coughlin had to make the football right and to so do he had to seek a divorce from his offense, severing a relationship for the sake of a younger model.

Quote

In revealing interviews with The Post, Coughlin and McAdoo shed some light on the steps taken by a veteran coach willingly giving up his offense to allow the younger assistant to take control.

“The decision to change and change radically, to be honest with you, was made in the best interest of our team,’’ Coughlin said. “It was made in the best interest of our quarterback, it was made in the best interest in stimulating and inspiring at a point, quite frankly, I thought the timing was right and it could be accomplished.’’

 

[iamhubby1]

15 hours ago, CRA said:

I mean there are a hundred articles detailing it.  

So I’ll repeat, as I told you earlier we could debate the why it was what it was….but you can’t deny the issue of predictable playcalling was McAdoo’s signature as the HC of the Giants. 
 

 

 

We did not hire MacAdoo as a HC. It has nothing to do with him as our OC. 

 

We hired MacAdoo as an OC. Of which he has been successful.

 

You have been given ample proof that Mac has done well as an OC. Yet you choose to ignore those, and run with the "But he was bad as a HC" line.

 

It's what you do. You expect others to eventually come around to your way of thinking. Meanwhile, you never try to come around to their side. Rigid adherence to one's own thoughts, leaves precious little room for others.

Edited June 2, 2022 by iamhubby1

[CRA]

1 hour ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

We did not hire MacAdoo as a HC. It has nothing to do with him as our OC. 

 

We hired MacAdoo as an OC. Of which he has been successful.

 

You have been given ample proof that Mac has done well as an OC. Yet you choose to ignore those, and run with the "But he was bad as a HC" line.

 

It's what you do. You expect others to eventually come around to your way of thinking. Meanwhile, you never try to come around to their side. Rigid adherence to one's own thoughts, leaves precious little room for others.

We hired him to call plays.  He called plays over the course of 4 seasons.   I talk about all 4.    

you only want 2 talked about.  Because the other two he received brutal criticism for. 

[iamhubby1]

1 minute ago, CRA said:

We hired him to call plays.  He called plays over the course of 4 seasons.   I talk about all 4.    

you only want 2 talked about.  Because the other two he received brutal criticism for. 

 

Oh give me a break. You want to throw out is HC time because it fits your narrative. Nothing more. He was a very good OC. Not so much as a HC. We all know that. Well, everyone but you accepts it.

 

Also, tell Kungfoopanda to quit baiting me. And I will never respond to you again. 

 

Every fuging post, or just out of the blue he throws personal attacks at me. Prove the rules are used fairly.

 

If he continues. I know that the rules don't apply evenly to everybody. 

[CRA]

8 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

Oh give me a break. You want to throw out is HC time because it fits your narrative. Nothing more. He was a very good OC. Not so much as a HC. We all know that. Well, everyone but you accepts it.

 

Also, tell Kungfoopanda to quit baiting me. And I will never respond to you again. 

 

Every fuging post, or just out of the blue he throws personal attacks at me. Prove the rules are used fairly.

 

If he continues. I know that the rules don't apply evenly to everybody. 

Again, he called offensive plays for the Giants for 4 seasons.  You deem 2 of them off limits simply because they were horrible years.  

if you want to have an honest discussion then the complete resume matters.   And I would assume the complete resume had a lot to do with what he failed to find an OC job despite looking for one the last 3 years.  And hot seat disaster Matt Rhule happened to be the only gig he could finally get. 

wish him the best.  But the narrative McAdoo is good just isn’t one people should be expected to agree with.   If he was good, he would have been hired in 2019 or 2020 or 2021. Good OCs get hired to be OCs when they want the job.  So the league obviously agrees he isn’t this hotshot prize.  

Or I guess you can argue Matt Rhule is just smarter than the rest of the league 

[MasterAwesome]

9 minutes ago, CRA said:

Again, he called offensive plays for the Giants for 4 seasons.  You deem 2 of them off limits simply because they were horrible years.  

if you want to have an honest discussion then the complete resume matters.   And I would assume the complete resume had a lot to do with what he failed to find an OC job despite looking for one the last 3 years.  And hot seat disaster Matt Rhule happened to be the only gig he could finally get. 

wish him the best.  But the narrative McAdoo is good just isn’t one people should be expected to agree with.   If he was good, he would have been hired in 2019 or 2020 or 2021. Good OCs get hired to be OCs when they want the job.  So the league obviously agrees he isn’t this hotshot prize.  

Or I guess you can argue Matt Rhule is just smarter than the rest of the league 

And what exactly are you doing?  You're quite clearly dismissing his 2 good years out of 4 (which incidentally are the two most relevant years when evaluating him as Offensive Coordinator), or at the very least discrediting/casting doubt on those years by throwing out baseless speculation that Tom Coughlin was likely behind his success.  Do you have any self-awareness?

Here's McAdoo's resume:

-2 solid years as OC

-2 poor years as HC with playcalling duties

When evaluating McAdoo as an OC candidate, I think any rational objective person would assign the overall weight something around 75% for his performance as OC and 25% for his performance as play-calling HC.  You seem to be doing the opposite: 75% of the weight assigned to play-calling HC and 25% of the weight assigned to his years as OC.  Otherwise I don't know how you take the above resume and conclude that McAdoo is a bottom 1/3 OC in the NFL.  If I'm being ULTRA charitable to you, those 2 good years and 2 bad years should logically be a wash and put him around the middle, i.e. an average OC.  Please make your equation make sense.

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, MasterAwesome said:

And what exactly are you doing?  You're quite clearly dismissing his 2 good years out of 4 (which incidentally are the two most relevant years when evaluating him as Offensive Coordinator), or at the very least discrediting/casting doubt on those years by throwing out baseless speculation that Tom Coughlin was likely behind his success.  Do you have any self-awareness?

Here's McAdoo's resume:

-2 solid years as OC

-2 poor years as HC with playcalling duties

When evaluating McAdoo as an OC candidate, I think any rational objective person would assign the overall weight something around 75% for his performance as OC and 25% for his performance as play-calling HC.  You seem to be doing the opposite: 75% of the weight assigned to play-calling HC and 25% of the weight assigned to his years as OC.  Otherwise I don't know how you take the above resume and conclude that McAdoo is a bottom 1/3 OC in the NFL.  If I'm being ULTRA charitable to you, those 2 good years and 2 bad years should logically be a wash and put him around the middle, i.e. an average OC.  Please make your equation make sense.

2 good + 2 horrible = what?  I'm not dismissing anything.  I simply am bringing into the equation what some don't want brought up. 

I talked about Coughlin likely being ONE of the factors that went into his playcalling going off the rails.  But you basically can't mention anything without people going overboard on it.    I also acknowledged some others too like the fact he probably didn't have the makeup to be a HC yet, the brutal NY press that might of been a little to harsh, etc.  But now I am Coughlin super fan lol. 

Well, McAdoo tried to get OC jobs for the 2019, 2020, 2021 and finally the 2022 season.  Only the great Matt Rhule finally came calling in 2022.   I mean, that alone should tell you that league itself isn't willing to just isolate those 2 years in a vaccum in terms of him as a playcaller/OC.   He would have found a job as an OC before Rhule finally took him in.  

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, CRA said:

2 good + 2 horrible = what?  I'm not dismissing anything.  I simply am bringing into the equation what some don't want brought up. 

I talked about Coughlin likely being ONE of the factors that went into his playcalling going off the rails.  But you basically can't mention anything without people going overboard on it.    I also acknowledged some others too like the fact he probably didn't have the makeup to be a HC yet, the brutal NY press that might of been a little to harsh, etc.  But now I am Coughlin super fan lol. 

Well, McAdoo tried to get OC jobs for the 2019, 2020, 2021 and finally the 2022 season.  Only the great Matt Rhule finally came calling in 2022.   I mean, that alone should tell you that league itself isn't willing to just isolate those 2 years in a vaccum in terms of him as a playcaller/OC.   He would have found a job as an OC before Rhule finally took him in.  

I mean, that last part is damning enough. Not being able to be employed at your job for that long is a bad look. Great or even good OC's aren't on the shelf that long unless they want to be.