Throwing Hurney under the bus.

[Sandy Claws]

Not offended at all.

DEPTH. WR, Albert Haynesworth, there were a ton of players we could have improved with. We lost most of our experienced backups on the offensive line. Boldin was to be had. We did NOTHING in the F.A. market. Peppers clearly tied our hands in the F.A. market. You think paying Peppers 1m a week for the regular season is worth what he has given us. He has played well but for that kind of money he should be in the QB's pocket every play.

You have your opinion and I have mine. Had we dealt Peppers or signed him to a reasonable deal we would have funds to tap the F.A. market for help.

I believe had we had money we would have brought in a Veteran WR to compliment Smitty. This year we will.

Go Panthers

Haynesworth was never an option. Good talent but too much baggage. Danny Boy Snyder was going to outbid everybody for him anyway. All we could have done was boost the final cost to the skins. The Cards were holding out for maximum return for Boldin and they never held serious discussions with anybody for a trade. He also wanted 10 mill or so per year as I recall.

As for depth, you're talking about paying for players on the bench, players you hope to never need. While it is hard to argue that Peppers' output matches his pay, he's coming closer to earning it than Geoff Schwartz is. My point is that the FA market had nothing.

[rayzor]

Don't be offended. I ask everybody this. If you really believe tying up 17 mill for Peppers was a bad move, who would you have spent that money on? WHo was out there that was available for us to sign that you think would have helped us?

for starters we would have kept the depth on the oline. i know hangman and omiyale wanted starting gigs but we still wouldn't have been forced to let them go. we could have made an offer. we wouldn't have let go jeremy bridges. we would have also had cap room to rebuild depth we lost. bottom line...oline wouldn't be the concern that it now is.

we wouldn't have let go jason kyle.

we wouldn't have had to give jake an extension.

we would have had more room to find a replacement for kemo when he went down and we could have done more to help us out prior to training camp to help what was a thin position. options that were available and affordable were rocky bernard, shaun cody, colin cole, and jovan haye.

at DE...there was chris canty (who while he has been hurt this year until recently would have been a good decision long term). anyone we would have picked would have been a drop off from peppers but we would have been stronger across the board had we not invested so much into him.

[beastson]

Jake was the worst decision

[Snake]

Jake was the worst decision

Really Peppers was. He kept us out of the FA pool and was given so much money no one player could ever live up too. Should have just let him walk. So what if we did not get anything for him if we are a better team without him dose it matter?

[Cyberjag]

Just to play a little Devil's Advocate here...

for starters we would have kept the depth on the oline. i know hangman and omiyale wanted starting gigs but we still wouldn't have been forced to let them go. we could have made an offer. we wouldn't have let go jeremy bridges. we would have also had cap room to rebuild depth we lost. bottom line...oline wouldn't be the concern that it now is.

We lost a pro-bowl left tackle. Omiyale isn't starter quality, and would have played in just one game. As soon as Gross went on IR Wharton would have been moved anyway. And Bernadeau isn't a drop-off from Hangman at left guard. At center, probably. But not at left guard. I think this is a wash unless Kalil goes down.

we wouldn't have let go jason kyle.

So far that hasn't cost us, has it? Or does it contribute to overall special teams suckage?

we wouldn't have had to give jake an extension.

You can think of it as an extension, but if the Panthers want to cut ties with him they can. They'll just take the cap hit later instead of this year. People make way, way, way too much out of this deal--as if it was done to keep Jake in Charlotte until he retires. He was already staying here, it was a cap move, plain and simple.

we would have had more room to find a replacement for kemo when he went down and we could have done more to help us out prior to training camp to help what was a thin position. options that were available and affordable were rocky bernard, shaun cody, colin cole, and jovan haye.

Colin Cole and Shaun Cody were signed last March, before we knew we needed anyone to replace Kemo. Haye and Bernard are undertackles, too small to replace Kemo. You need a nose tackle to replace a nose tackle.

at DE...there was chris canty (who while he has been hurt this year until recently would have been a good decision long term). anyone we would have picked would have been a drop off from peppers but we would have been stronger across the board had we not invested so much into him.

Canty wouldn't have been bad if we knew he was going to stay healthy, but it's still a drop-off from Peppers. I just can't fault anyone from shying away from the idea of a 3-4 DE with injury problems to replace an all-pro 4-3 DE.

I think the biggest impact would have been on special teams. We would have gone with more experienced players over rookies and young'uns. That could have made a nice difference there, but the defense would have been a lot worse.

[Dpantherman]

Im not putting all the blame on anyone. But he does get blame, and I put it out there. He had a horrible offseason. This is a "What have you done for me Lately" league. Lately, we've had some bad moves at the FO.

[Pimpdaddy]

Ill give credit. He's had alot of hits in the draft. He's also had alot of misses in the 2nd round on down. He's also had alot of free agent busts. Hurney should be given credit for some of the solid things he's done over the years. But he deserves to be scrutinized for the horrible offseason we just had after trading a 1st round pick for a 2nd round talent and for giving the worst QB in the NFL $20 million.

....First rounders are no-brainers....and if they'r busts, oh well. Its whether you can consistanly find good talent that will help your team after the first round....has he really done that? Not, in my opinion. Think his best move was Otah-Stewart move, his worst, Davis into an LB, and thats about it. What credentials did Hurney really have to warrant him as a talent evaluator, he was a hack sports writer in DC. ....I give it a C-.

He needs to ask himself, WWPD (what would pittsburgh do) since thats who we want to emulate...

[OneBadassCat]

I actually like Hurney a lot I think he does a good job. The problem is that Fox and Hurney are hand in hand so if you fire one you have to get rid of the other as well. At least that's my understanding of their relationship.

[rayzor]

Just to play a little Devil's Advocate here...

We lost a pro-bowl left tackle. Omiyale isn't starter quality, and would have played in just one game. As soon as Gross went on IR Wharton would have been moved anyway. And Bernadeau isn't a drop-off from Hangman at left guard. At center, probably. But not at left guard. I think this is a wash unless Kalil goes down.

losing gross would have hurt one way or the other but there is no way that the depth we have this year is anywhere as good as it was last year. you had guys you could rely on who had experience playing their positions at the pro level and in this system. this year we have a lot of untried and unproven commodities that we have to rely on that we know we could previously. we have been lucky so far to only have gross hurt. any other year we have had much more in the way of injury to the OL. this was a risk that they were forced to take that was too great to take.

So far that hasn't cost us, has it? Or does it contribute to overall special teams suckage?

for kyle...i don't care one way or the other, i think most of the problems that we have with punts is baker. still, this is one area that you really don't like to mess around with. we are struggling on special teams already and to let go one of the few things that you could actually count on wasn't smart, imo. we were better off and safer keeping kyle.

You can think of it as an extension, but if the Panthers want to cut ties with him they can. They'll just take the cap hit later instead of this year. People make way, way, way too much out of this deal--as if it was done to keep Jake in Charlotte until he retires. He was already staying here, it was a cap move, plain and simple.

was jake guaranteed $20mil before the extension?

Colin Cole and Shaun Cody were signed last March, before we knew we needed anyone to replace Kemo. Haye and Bernard are undertackles, too small to replace Kemo. You need a nose tackle to replace a nose tackle.

the need was there to build depth at DT before kemo went down. we struggled mightily at the end of the season because of injuries to kemo and lewis. the run defense had fallen apart earlier in the season. this was a huge area of concern. they were too cap strangled to do anything about it.

Canty wouldn't have been bad if we knew he was going to stay healthy, but it's still a drop-off from Peppers. I just can't fault anyone from shying away from the idea of a 3-4 DE with injury problems to replace an all-pro 4-3 DE.

brown was drafted to take peppers place if needed. there is going to be a drop off there no matter what happened, but it didn't have to be a drop off in other areas and it didn't need to be something that kept us from strengthening other areas where we had need. peppers, aside from a couple games this year, has not been at all worth the money that was invested in him. it also ahs not been worth the sacrifice. no one knows 100% if a decision is a good one or a bad one until it has been made and the actual results are in. to this point, the evidence in shows that this was the wrong decision and that is what hurney/fox must be held accountable for.

I think the biggest impact would have been on special teams. We would have gone with more experienced players over rookies and young'uns. That could have made a nice difference there, but the defense would have been a lot worse.

yes...that did hurt a lot. we were weak on special teams as it was, but then to lose experienced players and be stuck with a bunch of starting lineup rejects to fill in those holes, whether they had experience or not, hurt the team.

[hook]

When he traded next years first to get another first that was okay and made some sense. To trade next years first to move up in the second and take a d. end, knowing this draft will be full of QB's was a gamble no team can afford to take. We haven't taken a QB above round 4 since taking kerry collins. Most people running NFL teams consider QB the most important position but our idiots think d. end is the most important. That is why Peppers is the highest paid guy in the league this year. What a joke. Now whoever replaces them needs to figure out how to get a QB because Hurney ignored the position for 8 yrs.

[Sandy Claws]

for starters we would have kept the depth on the oline. i know hangman and omiyale wanted starting gigs but we still wouldn't have been forced to let them go. we could have made an offer. we wouldn't have let go jeremy bridges. we would have also had cap room to rebuild depth we lost. bottom line...oline wouldn't be the concern that it now is.

.

WHat? They were both UFAs. They only way we were going to keep them would be multi-year deals at starting rates. Do you actually believe it would be smart to tie up that much cap room on the bench? WHen was the last time you saw a rotation on the o-line? In other words, you're advocating letting a starter walk so you have high paid players keeping the sunshine off the pine.

we wouldn't have let go jason kyle.

And that move has hurt us how? We let a 37 year old guy go and got a 23 year old guy.

we wouldn't have had to give jake an extension.

We didn't have to give Jake an extension, we chose to. People were all for extending after 2003. His rating last year was higher than his rating then.

we would have had more room to find a replacement for kemo when he went down and we could have done more to help us out prior to training camp to help what was a thin position. options that were available and affordable were rocky bernard, shaun cody, colin cole, and jovan haye.

The guys you mentioned all signed early before Kemo was lost. With Kemo and Lewis set to be starters, spending 4-5 million a year for rotational players wasn't going to be likely any way and that's what a couple of those guys got. It comes down to haw much cash do you want to tie up on the bench.

That seems to be the theme of most people when it comes to Peppers. Sure the bench gets improved but we're weaker on the field.

[Mother Grabber]

Waaay too early to give up on Brown. The Texans got killed for taking Williams over Bush #1. They got killed some more when he was rather invisible early. Now he's a beast, Bush is just ok and they look like geniuses. We don't know how good Brown will be, but so far indications look good. We'll see...

[rayzor]

WHat? They were both UFAs. They only way we were going to keep them would be multi-year deals at starting rates. Do you actually believe it would be smart to tie up that much cap room on the bench? WHen was the last time you saw a rotation on the o-line? In other words, you're advocating letting a starter walk so you have high paid players keeping the sunshine off the pine.

my point was that we lost a lot of experienced depth that we couldn't replace if/when we let those guys loose. you seriously feel comfortable with the existing cheap and inexperienced depth we now have? no way would we have been stuck with that if we weren't stuck with such little cap room.

And that move has hurt us how? We let a 37 year old guy go and got a 23 year old guy.

point of that, again, is that you were letting go a proven commodity for an unknown in an area of a team that we were already struggling with. it's doubtful that we would have cut him loose if it wasn't for peppers tag. LS was not a weak spot on the team but when we went to jansen, we threatened to make it one.

We didn't have to give Jake an extension, we chose to. People were all for extending after 2003. His rating last year was higher than his rating then.

we restructured him because we needed to sign the rookies and needed a few pennies just in case. we gave him an extension because that was likely the only way that they were going to get jake to agree to it.

The guys you mentioned all signed early before Kemo was lost. With Kemo and Lewis set to be starters, spending 4-5 million a year for rotational players wasn't going to be likely any way and that's what a couple of those guys got.

just like i told cyberjag, DT was a huge weak spot at the end of the season and it was something that we needed to address in a big way. the need was there way before kemo went down and it was made much more dire by his going down.

It comes down to haw much cash do you want to tie up on the bench.

That seems to be the theme of most people when it comes to Peppers. Sure the bench gets improved but we're weaker on the field.

how much of our bench is starting now? if you don't have solid depth you are going to get killed when you start losing players like we have. if the bench is solid, we have a better chance of finishing the year strong.

we are as thin as we are on experience and talent in many positions primarily because we didn't have the cash to strengthen it. the only reason we didn't have the cash is because we thought that giving pep $1 mil a game and $17 for the season was a good idea.

also, tell me how strong pep has been for the majority of the season and honestly tell me you believe that he was worth the $1 per game he is getting.

[Dpantherman]

My main concern is trading away future picks to trade up. There is quality in late rounds. All of the Great drafting teams find value in all 7 rounds of the Draft. they don't need to trade up.