How dangerous is Willis as a runner? What makes him special?

[ForJimmy]

11 minutes ago, Catsfan69 said:

Also you put Lawrence in NE instead of Mack Jones and most likely he does win OROTY 

Lol only that’s not how it works. Cam went number 1 to what was the worst team in the league and won OROTY. Lawrence went number one to the worst team and struggled. 

[mrcompletely11]

Just now, ForJimmy said:

Lol only that’s not how it works. Cam went number 1 to what was the worst team in the league and won OROTY. Lawrence went number one to the worst team and struggled. 

With the worst head coach in the history of the nfl

[micnificent28]

4 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Cam was top tier for game winning drives during his prime. When he had talent (Smith) at WR he broke 4000 passing yards as a rookie. We also never provided him a LT. 
https://www.espn.com/blog/carolina-panthers/post/_/id/31017/overlooked-cam-newton-as-clutch-as-brady-rodgers-and-brees?platform=amp

Give Cam Hill, Kelce, and an elite line and imagine what he could have done. How did Mahomes look in his last Super Bowl with his OL was banged up giving him a below average OL? 
I swear people see a QB running and can’t handle it. Cam could throw it at a high level before TJ Watt destroyed his throwing shoulder. 

This!!!! People forget before that game people were saying Newton is leading in the race to repeat as league MVP. He was setting the league on fire. The pocket broke Newton, not running.

[Mr. Scot]

9 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

I think this is skewed. You used 2 guys as examples of running qbs. So you have 2 out 32 chance of winning the super bowl. Chances are you won't. Does that mean it can't work? No. Then the other example of couldn't keep it up leads to the idea Newtons body got destroyed running the ball so that's why he's not the Qb which isn't exactly the case either.

We didn't protect him and he got hurt in the pocket that Pittsburg game. Even up until this previous season with us Newton still looked like the same runner as far as rushing ability goes. He didn't lose effectiveness. His arm was just gone. His ability rifle in strikes between coverage wasn't there. Not to mention playing behind the worst offense line in carolina history. The Newton wasn't a good quarterback and running is why Is greatly overstated.

It's never worked, and until somebody shows a way to make it work, it's not gonna change. But chances are not too many teams are going to do that because, as mentioned, up to now it's never worked.

It'd also be a pretty extreme reversal of history because when the NFL started, there was no such thing as the forward pass. It was the AFL that introduced the forward pass. Purists from back then hated it but now it's everything. I seriously don't see that being reversed.

As to Newton specifically, his running ability might still be the same but his passing clearly isn't. Pretty much everyone acknowledges this is why teams aren't clamoring to sign him.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Mr. Scot

[Mr. Scot]

4 minutes ago, micnificent28 said:

This!!!! People forget before that game people were saying Newton is leading in the race to repeat as league MVP. He was setting the league on fire. The pocket broke Newton, not running.

That doesn't really help the argument though given that what Newton's injury affected was his passing, not his running.

To be honest, Cam Newton discussions in general don't really benefit Malik Willis because Newton wasn't a running quarterback. He was a dual threat.

Willis could conceivably turn out to be a dual threat, but arguing that he's one now would be a pretty big reach.

[ForJimmy]

35 minutes ago, mrcompletely11 said:

With the worst head coach in the history of the nfl

Who was Cam’s OC? Shula? 

[micnificent28]

1 hour ago, Carl Spackler said:

Oh, but if you're a HOF QB you find ways to win wherever you are. That's why you go top-10 to a bad team.

NO.... see Dan Marino.

[Carl Spackler]

1 minute ago, micnificent28 said:

NO.... see Dan Marino.

You're missing my point. I was saying that as a response to "if Lawrence went to NE he'd be ROTY."

[ForJimmy]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That doesn't really help the argument though given that what Newton's injury affected was his passing, not his running.

To be honest, Cam Newton discussions in general don't really benefit Malik Willis because Newton wasn't a running quarterback. He was a dual threat.

Willis could conceivably turn out to be a dual threat, but arguing that he's one now would be a pretty big reach.

Willis is like Lance was.  Raw as a passer but still got by on physical talent in a weaker conference.  The goal will be for a team to develop him into a solid passer who can also run when needed.  No team is going to want to use him to mainly run the ball and heave a few passes down the field.  Teams are in love with his arm talent.  He was round 63% completion in college and has the strongest arm in this class.  He is a QB who can throw the ball, he just needs further developing/refining.  I believe it was McShay that said he will instantly have one of the top 5 arms in the league and if they can develop his footwork in the pocket and teach him to go through progressions you could have a top 10 QB in the NFL.  

With that said we are not the team to do this.  If he goes somewhere like the Steelers or Saints he could turn out pretty good.  

Cam was never given a proper OL and the refs let teams rough the passer all day against him because of his size.  This is why his career ended early.  Just think his rookie year he put up 4000 passing yards with a decent OL and Steve Smith.  Had we continued to build a team around him he could have been basically what Josh Allen has become in Buffalo.  Rivera got too caught up in our defense to realize how good our team could have been if we properly developed Cam.  

[ForJimmy]

1 hour ago, Carl Spackler said:

Oh, but if you're a HOF QB you find ways to win wherever you are. That's why you go top-10 to a bad team.

Yep.  Burrow elevated the Bengals with their terrible coach/franchise.  

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Willis is like Lance was.  Raw as a passer but still got by on physical talent in a weaker conference.  The goal will be for a team to develop him into a solid passer who can also run when needed.  No team is going to want to use him to mainly run the ball and heave a few passes down the field.  Teams are in love with his arm talent.  He was round 63% completion in college and has the strongest arm in this class.  He is a QB who can throw the ball, he just needs further developing/refining.  I believe it was McShay that said he will instantly have one of the top 5 arms in the league and if they can develop his footwork in the pocket and teach him to go through progressions you could have a top 10 QB in the NFL.  

With that said we are not the team to do this.  If he goes somewhere like the Steelers or Saints he could turn out pretty good.  

Cam was never given a proper OL and the refs let teams rough the passer all day against him because of his size.  This is why his career ended early.  Just think his rookie year he put up 4000 passing yards with a decent OL and Steve Smith.  Had we continued to build a team around him he could have been basically what Josh Allen has become in Buffalo.  Rivera got too caught up in our defense to realize how good our team could have been if we properly developed Cam.  

That's not really working out so well with Lance so far.

And to be clear, those "ifs" are the problem, especially if he's a Panther.

(I agree with you he'd be better off to not be)

[ForJimmy]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

That's not really working out so well with Lance so far.

And to be clear, those "ifs" are the problem, especially if he's a Panther.

(I agree with you he'd be better off to not be)

The general consensus was Lance was going to sit a year.  He did and all the sudden everyone is skeptical.  Let's see what happens this year before we pass any judgement on him (I know their will be "leaks" for inside the organization).  "Ifs" are always going to be around for the draft because there are so many unknowns.  Players get drafted based on upside and potential all the time.  

[rayzor]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Not exactly...

If you have a quarterback who can't run, it doesn't matter because you're still going to have wide receivers, tight ends and running backs who can.

If you have a quarterback who can't pass, are you going to ask one of the other skill positions to throw passes for them?

Over the past 20 years, I've seen two teams try to work with an offense built primarily around running. One was Michael Vick's Falcons, the other was us with Newton. Neither won a championship. We got closer because Newton was a far better passer than Vick, but we couldn't keep it up for much longer than they did.

Future seasons with Norv Turner as OC told us that if we had tried a more balanced attack and spent more time teaching Newton to be a better passer, we could have had greater success. But we hadn't...so we didn't.

In today's NFL, especially with the rules set up the way they are, you can win with a balanced attack, you can win with a pass heavy attack, but you're not going to win championships with a primarily run based attack.

(heck, that's why we constantly have the arguments we do about how much we paid McCaffrey)

wait.... the offense with Cam was built around running? are you talking about towards the end or the whole time?

i'll debate that other stuff later, just wanted to be clear about that one point because that opens up a whole other can of worms.

[mrcompletely11]

3 minutes ago, rayzor said:

wait.... the offense with Cam was built around running? are you talking about towards the end or the whole time?

i'll debate that other stuff later, just wanted to be clear about that one point because that opens up a whole other can of worms.

Riverboat Ron certainly leaned into his rushing in his 2nd and 3rd years. 

 

edit to say designed runs.

Edited April 11, 2022 by mrcompletely11