let's see your top 6 selections for Carolina's 1.6 pick

[Brooklyn 3.0]

Best LT on the board. You don't need to see anything else.

[Icege]

1. Tyler Linderbaum, C, Iowa
2. Ikem Ekwonu, OL, NC State
3. Charles Cross, OT, Mississippi State
4. Evan Neal, OT, Alabama
5. Kayvon Thibodeaux, EDGE, Oregon
6. Aidan Hutchinson, DE, Michigan

Honourable Mention: Kyle Hamilton, S, Notre Dame

[Icege]

The idea that Tyler Linderbaum is "undersized" is incredibly uninformed. He's listed at 6'3" 291lbs fresh out of college without an NFL offseason. Now look at the following starting centers:

• Rodney Hudson (ARI) 6'2" 300 lbs
• Corey Linsley (LAC) 6'3" 301 lbs
• J.C. Tretter (CLE) 6'4" 307 lbs
• Jason Kelce (PHI) 6'3" 295 lbs
• Ben Jones (TEN) 6'3" 308 lbs
• Ryan Kelly (IND) 6'4" 309 lbs
• Matt Hennessy (ATL) 6'4" 295 lbs
• Garrett Bradbury (MIN) 6'3" 306 lbs
• Connor McGovern (NYJ) 6'4" 306 lbs
• Austin Corbett (LAR) 6'4" 306 lbs
• Matt Paradis (CAR) 6'3" 300 lbs

People are really out here trying to get folks to believe that the kid can't put on 10 lbs of muscles under an NFL strength & conditioning program when Creed Humphrey weighed 302 lbs at the combine and is now listed at 320 lbs?

I guess he's going to get pushed around by NFL DL just like Tristan Wirfs pushed him around when they... wayminit...

Ok.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Icege

[kungfoodude]

4 hours ago, stbugs said:

It may sound weird but the love for Linderbaum is interesting considering the small hands worries on Pickett (I don’t want him at 6). Linderbaum is, I believe, the smallest C prospect and some of his weaknesses are around getting bull rushed and needing more power. I have shades of Elflein/Paradis looking light in the pants and being bullied and those guys are heavier than Linderbaum.

I actually do share this concern, as well. I like him as a prospect because he is a high level technician. I think that can help and I think he can bulk a little too. Ryan was a smaller guy too. 

 Smaller and athletic guys can play well there but you have to be a really smart and really technically sound guy. I think Linderbaum is that kind of player.

[nagodox856]

Willis cause why not

[CanadianCat]

I get the whole positional value argument but to just stick and pick, I could REALLY get behind Linderbaum.

[BlitzMonster]

40 minutes ago, stbugs said:

Ryan was a 2nd rounder. Linderbaum worries me because he’s on the small side and his weaknesses line up with that. I just hope one of the LTs is there because reaching for a C at 6 is as bad as reaching for one these high bust potential QBs.

I'm starting to like kungfoodude's list a lot more - if the big 3 LT are gone, trade down. 

I love Linderbaum, Kyle Hamilton S NOTRE DAME and Nakobe Dean LB GEORGIA as prospects.  I think all three will likely have long, productive NFL careers.  I just don't like them at #6 because the positional value is so poor.   

Drafted at #6, you'd have guys walking into the NFL who would be among the highest paid players IN THE LEAGUE at their positions.  And that's not good - for the salary cap or for salary parity on the team.   Also bad for the pressure it puts on the players to be "supermen" at their job.  It makes it really hard on the rookie.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by BlitzMonster

[Jackie Lee]

14 minutes ago, BlitzMonster said:

I'm starting to like kungfoodude's list a lot more - if the big 3 LT are gone, trade down. 

I love Linderbaum, Kyle Hamilton S NOTRE DAME and Nakobe Dean LB GEORGIA as prospects.  I think all three will likely have long, productive NFL careers.  I just don't like them at #6 because the positional value is so poor.   

Drafted at #6, you'd have guys walking into the NFL who would be among the highest paid players IN THE LEAGUE at their positions.  And that's not good - for the salary cap or for salary parity on the team.   Also bad for the pressure it puts on the players to be "supermen" at their job.  It makes it really hard on the rookie.

 

You're already stuck with Elf (while healthy). I like the top LT's, and I think a couple of them could be better guards than BC for sure. Trading back would be nice for BPA/Willis, I think Zion Johnson could be a starting OG in the 2nd round if we can get that pick back. 

[JawnyBlaze]

OTs and QBs

[mc52beast]

Let’s go all in for this guy…

[Icege]

5 hours ago, stbugs said:

I’ll be honest, I’ve seen that but tell me outside of getting a penalty, what does pinning Wirfs mean? I believe that Wirfs had actually beaten him multiple times and that’s why Linderbaum was so excited.

If I look at the pin, Linderbaum, while big by normal human size, does look small on top of Wirfs.

Are you a huge fan because you watched him play a lot or are you a fan because of that pin? I’d bet most folks in here have seen the pin and not seen him play at all.

I’m still concerned at taking a C at 6, because the value is very poor and because even in that list he’s the smallest by weight and only taller than 1 player. That list of players has two guys taken at pick 18, two 2nd rounders, one 3rd rounder, one 4th rounder, two 5th rounders and two 6th rounders.

Taking Linderbaum based on even your comparison list is a crazy risk because he’s not good value even if he plays well.

What does Linderbaum pinning the best RT in the NFL show? That the handwringing over his size is uninformed at best. For one, he's literally the size of an NFL center with room to build mass. Second, with a 53-10 record as a heavyweight wrestler he clearly has no issue going head-to-head against other large (or larger) individuals. Third, he bullied the best RT in the NFL. Fourth, how can you be concerned about him getting a flag while at the same time possibly talking up trading down for Penning?

If Wirfs looked bigger than Linderbaum, which he should since he's 6'5", that attests even more to Linderbaum's ability to out leverage and win vs. bigger opponents.

I'm a huge fan because I've been watching him since last season when I had him as a sleeper day 3 pick for the Panthers (search for the earliest post on the Huddle for "Linderbaum." Is me! ). I'm a big fan of the center position and prefer OL to have a wrestling background so that they know how to deal with DL that have great hands (ie: Kawann Short) along with an innate sense for leverage. He rocketed up to the top offensive lineman in the draft. Duke Mayweather called the kid OL1 for this draft (and called Rashawn Slater OL1 for last year's draft). I've watched more Iowa games in the last two years than I have in my entire life to see that the kid is legit.

I don't buy into the whole "That's too high to pick a center!!!" nonsense because only one player touches the ball every single play and that's the center. He's has to get that ball to the QB, the control tower of the offense. He has to call blocking assignments while being on the same page of said QB. He's got to be strong enough to be able to deal with nose tackles weighing over 320lbs while also being quick enough to get up to the second level and de-cleat linebackers. There was an article years ago that I am desperately trying to find that showed that, statistically, teams that lost their centers faired worse than teams that lost their starting QB. However, I do recognize that a lot of other folks do subscribe to the idea that it's too high for a center so I'm very much okay with trading down to acquire additional picks and the best OL in the draft. To add, the center is the second most expensive position on the OL after OT. Having a guy on a rookie deal will allow us to have a strong line at a fraction of the cost of what other teams have to pay.

He might be taller than one of the listed centers, but he's the same height as five of them and only an inch shorter than the other five. Don't you Matt Rhule this!

The only offensive lineman I'm near as excited for is Ikem Ekwonu. He is a friggin monster.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Icege

[PantherNation123]

5 hours ago, Icege said:

What does Linderbaum pinning the best RT in the NFL show? That the handwringing over his size is uninformed at best. For one, he's literally the size of an NFL center with room to build mass. Second, with a 53-10 record as a heavyweight wrestler he clearly has no issue going head-to-head against other large (or larger) individuals. Third, he bullied the best RT in the NFL. Fourth, how can you be concerned about him getting a flag while at the same time possibly talking up trading down for Penning?

If Wirfs looked bigger than Linderbaum, which he should since he's 6'5", that attests even more to Linderbaum's ability to out leverage and win vs. bigger opponents.

I'm a huge fan because I've been watching him since last season when I had him as a sleeper day 3 pick for the Panthers (search for the earliest post on the Huddle for "Linderbaum." Is me! ). I'm a big fan of the center position and prefer OL to have a wrestling background so that they know how to deal with DL that have great hands (ie: Kawann Short) along with an innate sense for leverage. He rocketed up to the top offensive lineman in the draft. Duke Mayweather called the kid OL1 for this draft (and called Rashawn Slater OL1 for last year's draft). I've watched more Iowa games in the last two years than I have in my entire life to see that the kid is legit.

I don't buy into the whole "That's too high to pick a center!!!" nonsense because only one player touches the ball every single play and that's the center. He's has to get that ball to the QB, the control tower of the offense. He has to call blocking assignments while being on the same page of said QB. He's got to be strong enough to be able to deal with nose tackles weighing over 320lbs while also being quick enough to get up to the second level and de-cleat linebackers. There was an article years ago that I am desperately trying to find that showed that, statistically, teams that lost their centers faired worse than teams that lost their starting QB. However, I do recognize that a lot of other folks do subscribe to the idea that it's too high for a center so I'm very much okay with trading down to acquire additional picks and the best OL in the draft. To add, the center is the second most expensive position on the OL after OT. Having a guy on a rookie deal will allow us to have a strong line at a fraction of the cost of what other teams have to pay.

He might be taller than one of the listed centers, but he's the same height as five of them and only an inch shorter than the other five. Don't you Matt Rhule this!

The only offensive lineman I'm near as excited for is Ikem Ekwonu. He is a friggin monster.

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but the wrestling aspect of all of this does not support the case to draft him.  Wrestling - not the same as football, and the ability to use his “leverage”, was “low man wins” - yes a football carryover, but by no means boosts his draft capital (no matter who he pinned)

[Icege]

6 hours ago, PantherNation123 said:

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but the wrestling aspect of all of this does not support the case to draft him.  Wrestling - not the same as football, and the ability to use his “leverage”, was “low man wins” - yes a football carryover, but by no means boosts his draft capital (no matter who he pinned)

Not saying that wrestling alone makes him draftable. It's the transferrable skills from being a successful heavyweight wrestler that matters though in regards to addressing how he will compete against larger individuals.

Hand fighting is incredibly important in the trenches. Kawann Short made a lot of money because of his quick burst off of the line and violent hands that kept linemen from latching on to him (up until he lost his burst when the lower body injuries started). A person with a wrestling background is going to have that experience with hand placement, hand fighting, leverage, flexibility, and toughness that are vital to being a competent offensive lineman.

I would also argue that wrestling is much, much older than football and that "low man wins" is a carryover from wrestling.

Quoting former Packers' DT Datone Jones...

Quote

“It’s all about grappling, shedding blocks,” Jones said. “You’re used to having a guy having you one way, and you can torque his body and get off the block, make a play. Wrestling is the same as football, being tangled up with an offensive lineman. If you’re able to get off a guy and get a guy pressed off of you, it’s the same thing.

“I wish it was something I knew about when I was in high school. I’d be an ultimate athlete.”

But yea, definitely not the sole reason he should be drafted. Just part of the story that makes him more intriguing to me when evaluating.

[Icege]

11 hours ago, stbugs said:

This kid beat Wirfs too and I don’t think he’ll be in the NFL: 

Beating Wirfs in wrestling means nothing. It’s just a cool video.

Duke Mayweather’s opinion isn’t a guarantee either. Saying the consensus 2nd OL picked was OL 1 isn’t really going out on a limb.

I get you like him and you take that very personally but I am still concerned about his size because Linderbaum isn’t the only NFL player that can put on weight and get stronger.

I’m not saying Linderbaum will bust, just that I see some potential issues and that IMHO makes him really bad value 6, mainly that he’s a C and 7 of 9 you listed went 2nd through 6th. The most highly regarded prospect of them all went 18th. Colts still have Kelly but without Luck they went from 4 playoffs and 0 losing seasons in 6 years to 1 playoff and 2 losing seasons in 4 years. Pro bowl QB is more important than a pro bowl C.

We do agree that he’s a better value on a trade down and I’m all for that if a LT we like isn’t there at 6.

You do understand that this entire post of your's is one straw man fallacy after another, yes? None of that addressed the transferrable skillsets that exist between wrestling and football, nor does it address the faux-issue being raised in regards to his size.

The concerns were based on Linderbaum's size, which simply didn't hold up when we looked at the facts. I listed plenty of NFL centers that are the same size as Linderbaum along with his success as a wrestler to address the misinformed comments regarding the size of NFL centers as well as Linderbaum's ability to deal with larger opponents. Even if those opponents that you mentioned put the weight on, so will he, so I'm not sure why you're insisting that it's an issue here.

The round that those centers were drafted in is irrelevant. They were examples of his size not being an issue. However, I am glad that you brought up the "value" of picking a center in the first round as many Huddlers have voiced that the team has just as good of a shot as finding a center on day three as they do days one and two. That too, is misinformed:

• 1st: Frank Ragnow, Ryan Kelly, Garrett Bradbury, Alex Mack, Cesar Ruiz
• 2nd: Mitch Morse, Rodney Hudson, Josh Myers, Creed Humphrey, Justin Britt, Ethan Pocic
• 3rd: Brandon Linder, Quinn Meinerz, Matt Hennessy, Lloyd Cushenberry III, Connor McGovern (DAL), Michael Deiter
• 4th: J.C. Tretter, Ben Jones, Tyler Biadasz
• 5th: Corey Linsley, Connor McGovern (NYJ)
• 6th: Ryan Jensen, Jason Kelce

Drafting a center in the first round is not a bad thing. Drafting one at #6, if he's one of the top 6 players in the draft, is also not a bad thing. Would it be nice to play upon people's beliefs regarding positional value and leverage that against them to regain the team a day two pick while still landing Linderbaum? I'm all for it. However, in regards to the specifics of this thread, he's my favourite prospect in the draft and he's on that list of guys to get at #6. None of the QBs, imo, are worth the #6 pick. What Pro Bowl QB do you see in this draft class? Kenny Pickett? I have the ammo for that debate too if you want to venture into it

Edited February 12, 2022 by Icege