About that #6 pick and QB..

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I think horn will be great, but that wasn't the right decision to make. We could have had someone that would have made a much bigger impact on the game/season/future overall. OL or QB would have been a much wiser choice. 

This. I'm not necessarily knocking Horn saying he was the wrong choice. QB >>>>> CB and LT >>> CB in terms of positional value.

[firefox1234]

Just now, gofightwin said:

You seem to keep forgetting we had 1 starting CB going into the draft and they were on the last year of a contract.  

The issue is not with selecting a CB but the fact we did not get proper value for that pick. Starting corners can be found later in the draft. A team with obvious weakness at OL and QB should not be selecting a corner in the top 10. 

[firefox1234]

I thought when we left the Hurney era we would start getting more value for our top picks but it’s obvious we haven’t…

[Jon Snow]

7 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I think horn will be great, but that wasn't the right decision to make. We could have had someone that would have made a much bigger impact on the game/season/future overall. OL or QB would have been a much wiser choice. 

An offensive lineman might have contributed, but not one of the qbs in the last draft would have changed the outcome of last season.  It would have only served to make the fans feel better for a few games.  It would have only been a Pacifier for the fans until Sam inevitably crap the bed.

So I gotta somewhat disagree old buddy. 

[rayzor]

5 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

An offensive lineman might have contributed, but not one of the qbs in the last draft would have changed the outcome of last season.  It would have only served to make the fans feel better for a few games.  It would have only been a Pacifier for the fans until Sam inevitably crap the bed.

So I gotta somewhat disagree old buddy. 

They might have set us up for success later on more than horn. Definitely more than darnold. But I am definitely thinking more that OL would have been a better choice than a CB in the first and much better than the WR we got in the second. It just wasn't a good call in either room and considering how much OL talent there was and how great a need there was/is. Yeah, CB was an issue, but not as big an issue as OL. WR wasn't an issue, though, not compared to OL. And we totally muffed it 

[SCO96]

28 minutes ago, TheRumGone said:

I love jaycee and think he’s gonna be a beast but I don’t believe in building teams with top ten corner picks. I could see it if we were already an established team who had an off year. But these are building block picks right now. Need a qb, LT and pass rusher. We have 1 of those. Top ten corner picks on rebuilding teams are luxury picks imo. 

You listed 3 of the most important positions in football. in today's NFL, CB is arguably the 4th most important. If you don't have quality CB's you can't compete in today's pass happy league.

As I've stated, I don't think we made a catastrophic decision passing on Fields or Jones. I think picking D. Brown in the 1st round of 2020 was much worse than taking Jaycee in the first round of 2021. Even those who hated the pick will acknowledge that Jaycee is going to be a Pro-Bowl (may be even All-Pro) player if he stays healthy. I haven't seen anything (so far) to indicate Brown will ever reach either of those levels. A DT picked in the top 8 needs to be an immovable force in the run game, a guy who wrecks the pocket,  or guy who is good, if not great, at both. I don't think we lose much up front when he isn't on the field. If Brown doesn't break out in year 3 I'd start making plans to replace him. 

PS--I would've taken Slater at OT BTW

Edited February 10, 2022 by SCO96

[frankw]

Offense runs the league if your goal is to compete for a championship. Yes a strong defense can still have a major impact see the Bucs/Chiefs Super Bowl. But this season even the best corner in the league has been getting roasted from time to time and it was his offense that the Rams have made STEEP investments in that had to get it done in the playoffs to complete their SB push. If you want a return to relevancy ie playoff runs then OT and QB are infinitely more important than corner rn that's just a reality some people are going to have to accept and you can do so while still appreciating Jaycee bc he didn't draft himself. But unfair as it may be he will not be the last player to face after the fact draft comparisons.

[ForJimmy]

They passed on Mac and Fields because they believed in Darnold. They know now they were wrong…

[Jon Snow]

5 minutes ago, rayzor said:

They might have set us up for success later on more than horn. Definitely more than darnold. But I am definitely thinking more that OL would have been a better choice than a CB in the first and much better than the WR we got in the second. It just wasn't a good call in either room and considering how much OL talent there was and how great a need there was/is. Yeah, CB was an issue, but not as big an issue as OL. WR wasn't an issue, though, not compared to OL. And we totally muffed it 

I completely agree that oline should have been the call if it wasn't QB. We had issues everywhere so I can't really bitch about going defense over qb, but it's different matter when it comes to oline. 

While I don't agree with their approach to building this thing I do think I see what they attempting to do...kinda.  Hopefully this offseason will clear things up...or 

 

[TheRumGone]

15 minutes ago, SCO96 said:

You listed 3 of the most important positions in football. in today's NFL, CB is arguably the 4th most important. If you don't have quality CB's you can't compete in today's pass happy league.

Saying you need solid corners isn’t the same as investing a top ten pick in the position. You can get solid corners elsewhere when you are a rebuilding team. Quarterback and the offensive line should be the absolute main priorities. I was like you. I thought we were building some sort of legion of boom. After watching the past couple of seasons it’s obvious you just can’t build teams like that anymore. This is an offense driven league; the rule changes and the emphasis on safety have made it so.

[BrianS]

The problem I think a lot of folks have with last years draft isn't the draft itself.  It's how we behaved AFTER the draft. 

Taking Horn?  Ok, fine.  If the guy turns into a shutdown corner, it absolutely changes your defense.  JNo had one outstanding season as a shutdown corner in our system, and it absolutely changed our defense.  If Horn provides that?  Great pick.

TMJ?  This one, looking at it now, does seem baffling.  I am not sure I felt that we gave him a real chance this past year, despite Robby being downright terrible.  Either this is another example of our staff failing to develop players, or TMJ was a bad pick.  And I can't tell you which is true.  To me, TMJ should have been our hole card for letting Robby go, and I still don't know if we achieved that.

BC in the third we've talked to death.  We still don't know what we have there.  Might have a serviceable LT.  Might not.  Very frustrating.

Tremble in the third, he got some chances, didn't do badly.  Decent for a rookie, though I think we could have gotten him some more opportunity by putting him in instead of Ricci.

Chuba in the 4th?  He got an opportunity, turns out he's not much of a pass catcher.  As a runner, he did ok considering the OLine he was stuck with.  Might be a long term contributor.

 

Was our draft really the problem?  I'm not sure it was.  I think the problem was how we behaved after it.  In a bubble, CJ Henderson for a third isn't terrible.  But did we REALLY need another CB?  I know Horn was out by that point, but we had somehow convinced ourselves after three games we were a playoff contender.  Jury is still out on Henderson, and honestly I think I'd rather have the pick NOW.

All of the moves afterward that didn't allow us to properly evaluate that draft . . . that was an issue, to me.

 

 

[firefox1234]

3 minutes ago, BrianS said:

The problem I think a lot of folks have with last years draft isn't the draft itself.  It's how we behaved AFTER the draft. 

Taking Horn?  Ok, fine.  If the guy turns into a shutdown corner, it absolutely changes your defense.  JNo had one outstanding season as a shutdown corner in our system, and it absolutely changed our defense.  If Horn provides that?  Great pick.

TMJ?  This one, looking at it now, does seem baffling.  I am not sure I felt that we gave him a real chance this past year, despite Robby being downright terrible.  Either this is another example of our staff failing to develop players, or TMJ was a bad pick.  And I can't tell you which is true.  To me, TMJ should have been our hole card for letting Robby go, and I still don't know if we achieved that.

BC in the third we've talked to death.  We still don't know what we have there.  Might have a serviceable LT.  Might not.  Very frustrating.

Tremble in the third, he got some chances, didn't do badly.  Decent for a rookie, though I think we could have gotten him some more opportunity by putting him in instead of Ricci.

Chuba in the 4th?  He got an opportunity, turns out he's not much of a pass catcher.  As a runner, he did ok considering the OLine he was stuck with.  Might be a long term contributor.

 

Was our draft really the problem?  I'm not sure it was.  I think the problem was how we behaved after it.  In a bubble, CJ Henderson for a third isn't terrible.  But did we REALLY need another CB?  I know Horn was out by that point, but we had somehow convinced ourselves after three games we were a playoff contender.  Jury is still out on Henderson, and honestly I think I'd rather have the pick NOW.

All of the moves afterward that didn't allow us to properly evaluate that draft . . . that was an issue, to me.

 

 

I think one could easily argue we thought we were contenders before the draft. That is the only way you explain trading for Darnold and exercising his option.

[BrianS]

1 minute ago, firefox1234 said:

I think one could easily argue we thought we were contenders before the draft. That is the only way you explain trading for Darnold and exercising his option.

Certainly one possibility, but I really think that the staff was sold on the idea they could "fix" Darnold.  They truly thought that he was a franchise QB who just needed a tweak.  The problem is they were wrong.

It's easy to see now.  Honestly, it should have been before.  Franchise QB's lift the team around them.  They don't need everything to be perfect.  Maybe it takes them a year or two or even three to put it all together.  But they lift the team.

Darnold never did that.  He made a few flashy plays.  Someone on here once commented that he reminded them of Jeff George.  Spot on.  He's is Jeff George for this era.

[SCO96]

8 minutes ago, firefox1234 said:

I think one could easily argue we thought we were contenders before the draft. That is the only way you explain trading for Darnold and exercising his option.

I think you're spot on here. I had no illusions of us being a contender this year. I was hoping for an 8-9 win season with the expectation that 2022 would be our breakthrough year. This shows you just how bad Rhule has been (so far) with his talent evaluations. We all knew this O-line was not going to be great (although I had no idea it would be as bad as it was in 2021). It's hard to believe that he thought Sam was the missing piece to put a team over the top.

I understand the Gilmore deal because we didn't give up much to get him. And, if he leaves this off-season I believe we're eligible for a comp pick. The CJ Henderson pick was a reach. Once again Rhule took another's team discarded 1st round draft choice with the thought that he could succeed with him. Neither Darnold, nor Henderson, had a positive impact on the team last year. Ironically, we could be in a position to significantly improve our team in 2022 if we'd never made those deals. Still, I'm pulling hard for both players and hope they make me eat crow in 2022.