The Panthers and the Rooney Rule

[Michael G]

The heart of the matter is a question we all know the answer to, but few will admit. The most qualified person should be hired in every instance regardless of race/gender etc. How much do personal prejudices of the people (mostly white older men) doing the hiring affect the evaluation of applicants?

When Daboll was hired, was it because he was the best guy for the job solely based on qualifications? Or was it because Schoen was prejudiced by his previous relationship with Daboll in Buffalo? If it had been another GM (Gettleman or whoever) would the hire be the same?

Schoen may not be prejudiced against minorities but even so many people are definitely prejudiced in favor of people they know and feel comfortable with. That's the Systemic issue of prejudice. If the people in change of the system are mostly white men, even though they aren't prejudiced against minorities or women, they still lean towards hiring people they know well, have been around, and may have established relationships with (mostly more white men). Its not as much about qualifications as it is with comfort.

People have to come together and become a part of each other's lives to change heart and minds. When NFL FO folks get out of their comfort zone and do this then maybe things will change. 

 

[Madwolf]

The Rooney rule exists so all qualified candidates get an interview, regardless of their skin color, which wasn't happening before.

It's obviously incredibly imperfect since now teams will just interview people for the rule and not actually consider them.

The biggest problem with these issues is perspective and trying to change it to see different sides of the coin, which is admittedly harder to do than state. 

Initially I felt it wasn't right to be forced to interview anyone for any reason, but after hearing Charlie Strong talk about his struggles trying to get a head coach job it really shifted my perspective on why the rule was actually in place. Say what you want about his time at Texas and USF, but the man clearly should have gotten an opportunity before Louisville came knocking. 

[kungfoodude]

16 minutes ago, Madwolf said:

The Rooney rule exists so all qualified candidates get an interview, regardless of their skin color, which wasn't happening before.

It's obviously incredibly imperfect since now teams will just interview people for the rule and not actually consider them.

The biggest problem with these issues is perspective and trying to change it to see different sides of the coin, which is admittedly harder to do than state. 

Initially I felt it wasn't right to be forced to interview anyone for any reason, but after hearing Charlie Strong talk about his struggles trying to get a head coach job it really shifted my perspective on why the rule was actually in place. Say what you want about his time at Texas and USF, but the man clearly should have gotten an opportunity before Louisville came knocking. 

Exactly. 

AA is no different. A very imperfect system but it exists because of historic abuse in hiring practices. People may not like the idea of forcing hires or forcing interviews because it feels unfair. It isn't purely merit based.

But that is also a very unrealistic viewpoint. Employment and advancement is rarely purely merit based. After all, regardless of any sort of race/gender/creed/religion how many people see naked and obvious nepotism in their fields? Happens ALL the time and all over.

So if we throw out this false idea of a purely merit based employment system, these are why these checks(although at some level fundamentally unfair) exist.

[aGDevil2k]

9 hours ago, Shocker said:

 Brian Flores is better than many of these coaches out there right now.  He should definitely get a HC job…but he won’t now.  Freeze out from these dinosaur owners is certain 

The Panthers could make amends and fire our "coach" and get Flores

[kungfoodude]

2 hours ago, aGDevil2k said:

The Panthers could make amends and fire our "coach" and get Flores

I think Flores made his bed when he took on the NFL. I think he probably knows that, as well. He was upset enough to likely never coach in the NFL again.

But, he can make a bunch of money coaching in college, so there is that.

[Anybodyhome]

Read this op-ed from less than 2 years ago. Couple excerpts below. Of particular note is the statement I bolded...

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/05/16/on-the-rooney-rule-nfl-considers-swapping-punishment-for-reward/

When it comes to compliance with the Rooney Rule, the NFL has all but ruled out using a stick. So it may try a carrot instead.

By devising a proposed system that would reward teams for creating opportunities for minority coaching candidates via enhanced draft standing, the league is essentially admitting that its unwillingness to punish those who make a mockery of the letter and/or spirit of the Rooney Rule requires an approach based on creating an incentive for making personnel moves with race in mind. This proposed expansion of the Rooney Rules represents a major break from the standard that requires teams to interview at least one minority candidate for a vacant job; the new approach, if adopted, actually gives teams a tangible benefit for hiring a minority candidate.

On one hand, this is what it has come to for the NFL. The owners individually, and thus collectively, often decide on the next coach or G.M. before the hiring cycle even commences. In most cases, the pre-ordained choice is a non-minority, making it difficult if not impossible for a viable minority candidate to have a fair chance at getting the job. If the owners simply aren’t going to walk the talk and if the league is going to look the other way when, for example, the Texans fire a white G.M. with the goal of hiring another white G.M. and give perfunctory interviews to a pair of non-white G.M. candidates to comply with the letter of the Rooney Rule before hiring no G.M. at all because they couldn’t get the white G.M. they wanted, the situation won’t change.

On the other hand, the proposal encourages owners to make decisions based on a legally protected characteristic. Race should never be an issue in a hiring decision, whatever the race of the person being hired. Although the litigation risk is low (no coach will trade his career in a 32-company industry for the right to sue), it’s wrong (and illegal) to make hiring decisions based in whole or in part on the race of the applicants. And yet the league’s proposed expansion of the Rooney Rule expressly encourages it.

-----------------------------------------

"No coach will trade his career..."

Wanna bet?

[SmokinwithWilly]

7 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

The spirit of the Rooney rule is basically to force NFL teams to simply give opportunities to interview in the hopes that experience alone would start to change some hearts/minds and eventually black coaches would be given more jobs in the league. Mixed results so far but far less impact than I am guessing the league thought. 

Ultimately, it's going to take a lot of time. Owners are of an age range where you can expect certain attributes. Similarly, they are of a wealth range where you can expect certain attributes. If they hire enough similarly minded people, it makes it tough to change that culture. 

IMO, if the numbers of black assistant coaches, position coaches and coordinators keep increasing, the change is inevitable. The NBA had to go through similiar at one time. In rather typical fashion, the NFL is one of the slowest to change.

I understand the spirit in which it was intended. Unfortunately ingrained racism isn't something you can just RR out of existence with some of these owners. 

What I would really like to see is the NFL push apprenticeship or more assistant type roles for players that are interested in making the transition or for those that maybe lack the physical talent to play but have the intellectual gift but have a harder time finding the opportunity to get involved. 

There's always going to be hate and it's such a stupid thing. We're all fingers on the same hand. We may look different but we have to work to make it all work. 

[Anybodyhome]

2 hours ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

What I would really like to see is the NFL push apprenticeship or more assistant type roles for players that are interested in making the transition or for those that maybe lack the physical talent to play but have the intellectual gift but have a harder time finding the opportunity to get involved. 

This was done many years ago, but I honestly don't know if it's still a thing. Stephen Davis was one of the first when he came back to apprentice with the Panthers a couple years after his retirement. Wiki says he was the "minority coaching intern" during the 2010-11 season.

[kungfoodude]

6 hours ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

I understand the spirit in which it was intended. Unfortunately ingrained racism isn't something you can just RR out of existence with some of these owners. 

What I would really like to see is the NFL push apprenticeship or more assistant type roles for players that are interested in making the transition or for those that maybe lack the physical talent to play but have the intellectual gift but have a harder time finding the opportunity to get involved. 

There's always going to be hate and it's such a stupid thing. We're all fingers on the same hand. We may look different but we have to work to make it all work. 

Yeah, there are no perfect solutions because there are no perfect people.

[KillaCamNewton]

16 hours ago, Michael G said:

The heart of the matter is a question we all know the answer to, but few will admit. The most qualified person should be hired in every instance regardless of race/gender etc. How much do personal prejudices of the people (mostly white older men) doing the hiring affect the evaluation of applicants?

When Daboll was hired, was it because he was the best guy for the job solely based on qualifications? Or was it because Schoen was prejudiced by his previous relationship with Daboll in Buffalo? If it had been another GM (Gettleman or whoever) would the hire be the same?

Schoen may not be prejudiced against minorities but even so many people are definitely prejudiced in favor of people they know and feel comfortable with. That's the Systemic issue of prejudice. If the people in change of the system are mostly white men, even though they aren't prejudiced against minorities or women, they still lean towards hiring people they know well, have been around, and may have established relationships with (mostly more white men). Its not as much about qualifications as it is with comfort.

People have to come together and become a part of each other's lives to change heart and minds. When NFL FO folks get out of their comfort zone and do this then maybe things will change. 

 

How do you define “qualified” though? The problem is people dont understand the difference between “qualified” and “experienced”

By that logic Mike Shula was more qualified for the Rams job in 2017 than Sean McVay was

regardless of how the media is trying to spin this there are plenty of examples of black coaches getting jobs over more “qualified” white coaches. Brian Flores himself was never even a coordinator before he got the Dolphins job. Guys like Steve Wilks and Vance Joseph were coordinators for one season before getting head coaching jobs. Mike Tomlin was a coordinator for one season for a team that went 6-10 and gave up almost 400 points yet got hired by the premier franchise of the league that was a year removed from a Super Bowl. Byron Leftwich was a coordinator for one season, has Tom Brady fall in his lap and now he deserves to be a head coach?

talking heads get so tied up in “qualifications” and “experience” instead of what really matters which is does the coach demonstrate he can develop players, does he demonstrate he can put players into positions that utilize their strengths, whats his philosophy in how he manages a game, how does he plan to utilize the current talent on the roster and what types of players will he covet in the draft and free agency?

we keep hearing about how Eric Bienemy keeps getting passed over for jobs yet for all we know in an interview if hes asked how he plans to score points without Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill he might not have an answer

[SizzleBuzz]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:39 PM, Mr. Scot said:

The Fritz Pollard Alliance accused Jerry Richardson of using the interim tag to keep from interviewing other / minority candidates for the GM position. As a result, the Panthers interviewed three minority candidates...and then went ahead and named Marty Hurney the permanent GM.

Was that a violation of the "rule"?

[Car123]

Is there a Rooney rule for coordinators? If not, there should be.

[Michael G]

On 2/4/2022 at 12:08 AM, KillaCamNewton said:

How do you define “qualified” though? The problem is people dont understand the difference between “qualified” and “experienced”

That is the big issue. There is no "operational definition" of qualified that is consistent for each situation. That's why the rule is imperfect. 

[@bonafidebanter]

Get rid of the Rooney Rule. It's not working and you can't change the character of rich old men. Since the "rule" has been in effect, there have been 15 minority hires out of 129. Just let these franchises keep making mistakes like Rhule and Judge and many, many others. Let them exclude very good minority candidates to keep the good 'ole boy network up and running smoothly. It's up to fans and players to make a difference. Black, not minority, players make up more than 70% of the league. They have more power than they know to make change. Think what would happen if most of those players were to sit down and dare I say protest. Fans can just stop watching and going to games. The thing is, we know this won't happen so this is going to be what it is. There is nothing that you can do to change these rich old men's minds. It makes me ill because I absolutely love football and the NFL. It sickens me every time stories are brought up with Black and minority coaches getting screwed.