2002 John Fox article from Gameday mag...

[KillerKat]

Since when can RBs carry a whole team? I wonder what Barry Sanders or Stephen Jackson would say about that?

The point of this thread was stating that the team was "unmotivated" but somehow only I was able to identify one player that fits that description.

--thats odd

You argued further that Fox only won because of talent and also could not develop his talent.

--that is just laughable.

Listen I am all open ears to reasonable criticism, but this just does not cut it.

Since when did Barry and Stephen have the line we had?

I said the TEAM as a whole looks unmotivated on the sidelines from time to time just like the Dolphins game. I said that multiple times. Yeah there are some players that show intensity but a few players doesn't translate into fire within the whole team.

Yes Fox won because of his talent due to the fact he doesn't adjust his game plan. He sticks with it even when its failing. He also has poor play calling. There are times him and Davidson (I say both cause you know he has his nose in it) where they called good games, but its inconsistant this year. Which has been critised by players. And what happened to the defense at the second half of last season? It points to Fox. What has happened to our D when we play top competition? Its bad like it was the end of last year.

What do you make of players speaking out more? It used to be that you wouldn't hear a thing from the players. What about what Jenkins said and what Peppers said? Or Smith and Jake critizing the coaches on the sideline? That points to poor coaching which means he isn't doing his job! Why is it Beason has to call out Peppers in order for him to play good? Why couldnt Fox do that?

If you think Fox develops talent, you are kidding yourself. You ignored where I posted the positions we've had trouble or been having trouble at recently. Why do we still not have a legit #2 WR or legit QB competition? Why didn't we already have players behind our DTs to step in if they got hurt? Instead we had to sign project rookies until finally a veteran became available and started right away. Why is it they waited till injuries pilled up to start Martin at safety?

Also I'd like to add, when a team like that Patriots almost lead the league in injuries, they have guys that can step up and they wont miss a beat. Why? Because they have coaches that can actually develop talent. A few years ago they were in the top 3 of players on IR yet they were still competitive. When we have injuries, we aren't.

[dksmith17]

Since when did Barry and Stephen have the line we had?

I said the TEAM as a whole looks unmotivated on the sidelines from time to time just like the Dolphins game. I said that multiple times. Yeah there are some players that show intensity but a few players doesn't translate into fire within the whole team.

Yes Fox won because of his talent due to the fact he doesn't adjust his game plan. He sticks with it even when its failing. He also has poor play calling. There are times him and Davidson (I say both cause you know he has his nose in it) where they called good games, but its inconsistant this year. Which has been critised by players. And what happened to the defense at the second half of last season? It points to Fox. What has happened to our D when we play top competition? Its bad like it was the end of last year.

What do you make of players speaking out more? It used to be that you wouldn't hear a thing from the players. What about what Jenkins said and what Peppers said? Or Smith and Jake critizing the coaches on the sideline? That points to poor coaching which means he isn't doing his job! Why is it Beason has to call out Peppers in order for him to play good? Why couldnt Fox do that?

If you think Fox develops talent, you are kidding yourself. You ignored where I posted the positions we've had trouble or been having trouble at recently. Why do we still not have a legit #2 WR or legit QB competition? Why didn't we already have players behind our DTs to step in if they got hurt? Instead we had to sign project rookies until finally a veteran became available and started right away. Why is it they waited till injuries pilled up to start Martin at safety?

Also I'd like to add, when a team like that Patriots almost lead the league in injuries, they have guys that can step up and they wont miss a beat. Why? Because they have coaches that can actually develop talent. A few years ago they were in the top 3 of players on IR yet they were still competitive. When we have injuries, we aren't.

The Miami game involved two of the top 3 most run heavy teams in the league. Everyone that follows follows football knows that if you bring two teams with the same old school mentality it will not be not as exciting as others you see today. Don't mistake the style of play for being unmotivated. And if you don't want to watch old school football, perhaps you should not be a Panther fan.

Nope I didn't miss anything. You must of missed my point that made your point about not developing talent ridiculous. He has talent that he devloped out of nowhere. A 3rd round WR that is arguably the best pound for pound player in the league. An undrafted quarterback from NFL Europe that deveolped into a superbowl, probowl quarterback.

Not many teams, if any have solid depth at quarterback and defensive tackle. Both positions have very small depth as a whole.

So now your comparing us to the Patriots? sigh

[KillerKat]

The Miami game involved two of the top 3 most run heavy teams in the league. Everyone that follows follows football knows that if you bring two teams with the same old school mentality it will not be not as exciting as others you see today. Don't mistake the style of play for being unmotivated. And if you don't want to watch old school football, perhaps you should not be a Panther fan.

Nowhere did I mention the style of play on the field as being boring. I said the players on the sidelines looked unenergetic. Perhaps you should learn how to read before you start posting any further.

Nope I didn't miss anything. You must of missed my point that made your point about not developing talent ridiculous. He has talent that he devloped out of nowhere. A 3rd round WR that is arguably the best pound for pound player in the league. An undrafted quarterback from NFL Europe that deveolped into a superbowl, probowl quarterback.

No I didn't miss it. In fact, I addressed it directly multiple times. Yeah Steve Smith is the only WR that we have developed. I mentioned this on the first plage. Jake was not developed at all. He has slowly gotten worse through out the years. The same faults wrong with him today are the same faults he had back in 2003, except this time they are magnified due to age.

Not many teams, if any have solid depth at quarterback and defensive tackle. Both positions have very small depth as a whole.

This is a joke right?

So now your comparing us to the Patriots? sigh

Why not? You and others compare us to the Lions and Rams. Besides, I brought them up because they actually have good coaching and can actually develop talent. Unlike Fox.

...

[dksmith17]

The Miami game involved two of the top 3 most run heavy teams in the league. Everyone that follows follows football knows that if you bring two teams with the same old school mentality it will not be not as exciting as others you see today. Don't mistake the style of play for being unmotivated. And if you don't want to watch old school football, perhaps you should not be a Panther fan.

Nowhere did I mention the style of play on the field as being boring. I said the players on the sidelines looked unenergetic. Perhaps you should learn how to read before you start posting any further.

the old reading comprehension card? Really?

Nope I didn't miss anything. You must of missed my point that made your point about not developing talent ridiculous. He has talent that he devloped out of nowhere. A 3rd round WR that is arguably the best pound for pound player in the league. An undrafted quarterback from NFL Europe that deveolped into a superbowl, probowl quarterback.

No I didn't miss it. In fact, I addressed it directly multiple times. Yeah Steve Smith is the only WR that we have developed. I mentioned this on the first plage. Jake was not developed at all. He has slowly gotten worse through out the years. The same faults wrong with him today are the same faults he had back in 2003, except this time they are magnified due to age.

Please tell me if this makes sense: You only win because of talent that you have developed but you are not able to develop talent. ??

Not many teams, if any have solid depth at quarterback and defensive tackle. Both positions have very small depth as a whole.

This is a joke right?

Not a joke, defensive tackles and quarterbacks are 2 of the positions in the NFL that teams fight for.

So now your comparing us to the Patriots? sigh

Why not? You and others compare us to the Lions and Rams. Besides, I brought them up because they actually have good coaching and can actually develop talent. Unlike Fox.

Since when do I compare us to the Rams and Lions?

...

[beastson]

Idk who that is

[KillerKat]

the old reading comprehension card? Really?

A person that misses what the other has said over and over again has a comprehension problem. I talked specifically and repeatedly about the players ON THE SIDELINES.

Please tell me if this makes sense: You only win because of talent that you have developed but you are not able to develop talent. ??

If you dont know the answer to this, you don't even need to keep having this discussion. He drafts the talent, but lacks in developing them. Especially recently. Even then, his drafts basically sucked until the past couple years. However taking Stewart over Flacco was a mistake, but that's a whole nother discussion.

Not a joke, defensive tackles and quarterbacks are 2 of the positions in the NFL that teams fight for.

Yet the good teams have depth at both of those positions because they are both imporant for team success. The Giants have major depth at DT. The Eagles just about always have a good backup QB. The Pats last year had a good backup QB. The teams that are constantly competitive have coaches that can develop their talent that they draft which in turn provides them with greater depth at just about ALL positions. Which helps when you have a injury plagued season like the Pats did a few years ago and still stayed competitive.

Since when do I compare us to the Rams and Lions?

Remember when you brought up Barry and Stephen? Also what's been going around the board alot lately, and is very stupid, is "Well, least we aren't the Lions". They use that as an way to keep supporting Fox. Why is it that these fans lower their expectations that low? Why not aim high? Why not reverse this process of thinking and say "Well, we arent constantly competitive like the good teams in the league such as the Steelers, Giants, Colts, Pats, etc. Fox needs to go!".

[PantherDude]

Since when can RBs carry a whole team? I wonder what Barry Sanders or Stephen Jackson would say about that?

The point of this thread was stating that the team was "unmotivated" but somehow only I was able to identify one player that fits that description.

--thats odd

You argued further that Fox only won because of talent and also could not develop his talent.

--that is just laughable.

Listen I am all open ears to reasonable criticism, but this just does not cut it.

Word.

And KK, Jake wasn't bad last year. Yes, he was awful against Raiders & the Cards in Playoffs, but not last year. He is awful this season I can give you that, but you always seem to imply he suck ever since he came here & never give him credit at all for some of the impressive wins we got over the years (Chargers last year, Rams in the Playoffs as his first starting job, etc.). You can say he suck & all that this season so far, but give credit where it's due from the past rather than saying he suck for years when that is false.

[KillerKat]

Word.

And KK, Jake wasn't bad last year. Yes, he was awful against Raiders & the Cards in Playoffs, but not last year. He is awful this season I can give you that, but you always seem to imply he suck ever since he came here & never give him credit at all for some of the impressive wins we got over the years (Chargers last year, Rams in the Playoffs as his first starting job, etc.). You can say he suck & all that this season so far, but give credit where it's due from the past rather than saying he suck for years when that is false.

How about both Bucs games, the Vikings game, Chicago, and Denver to go along with those bad games in Oakland and in the playoffs vs Cards? Thats 7 bad games. The highest number of bad games he has ever had before this year. So much for your "Jake wasn't bad last year" myth.

Through out his career here, he has mostly been a product of the guys around him. The mechanical issues and decision making issues he has now is what he's always had. It just started out small and ended up getting this huge. They've just gotten worse each year until it has reached it's peak this year due to him getting older and/or diminishing skills. A QB can only get so far the way that he plays and the faults he has.

[PantherDude]

How about both Bucs games, the Vikings game, Chicago, and Denver to go along with those bad games in Oakland and in the playoffs vs Cards?

You're kidding me, right? You think he was bad at home against the Bucs, Bears, & Broncos last year? Come on!

And maybe he wasn't perfect against the Vikings either, but he sure as hell wasn't god awful either like you said.

Thats 7 bad games. The highest number of bad games he has ever had before this year. So much for your "Jake wasn't bad last year" myth.

7 bad games? More like 3 or 4 games. So much for your "Jake was bad" myth crap. Ever since he been playing awful lately this year, some are being too biased with never giving him credit at all & keep saying "He always been terrible". Even during the Superbowl season which is sad.

[qipte]Through out his career here, he has mostly been a product of the guys around him.