After today, everyone should understand you need a QB

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, Growl said:

With Mr Scot its more a resentment of the way the game has changed. Winning a certain way is just as important to him as winning.

Nobody here misses the way the game was more than me but I’m not out to prove it should or can still be done a certain way.

Nah, but I'm used to stupid troll takes from you, so...

[AU-panther]

3 minutes ago, Icege said:

It means exactly what it says. We had a franchise QB in Cam Newton. The first two season with that franchise QB, he had an OL and set records across the league during his first two seasons. However, a leaky defense prevented the team from being able to make it to the postseason. In 2013, the defense is strong and the OL is solid (Gross-Wharton-Kalil-Scott-Bell) but has question marks on the right side. The team makes the playoffs but are promptly eliminated by the 49ers. They make the playoffs again in 2014 but mainly because the rest of the NFC South blows. The OL? Bell-Scott-Kalil-Turner-Jones to start, but towards the end of the season it was Bell-Norwell-Kalil-Turner-Remmers. They're eliminated by Seattle after beating Arizona in the wildcard. In 2015 when the team had a top 5 defense and an OL with a legit LT? 15-1 (just imagine if Williams had replaced Remmers sooner) and a Super Bowl trip.

We see the tired debate of QB vs OL every offseason. The OP lists Burrow and Allen as reasons for going QB at #6, but if you want to talk about how small somebody's perspective looks then take a look at the idea that those QBs and QBs alone are why those teams are currently advancing in the playoffs.

Hell, we just watched Mahomes lose a Super Bowl because of a subpar OL. Let's actually learn from mistakes rather than repeating them and insisting it'll be different this time.

so what you are saying we would have been better off with a better O-line and Clausen as the QB?

 

[Icege]

2 hours ago, AU-panther said:

So we would have been better with a great O-line and Clausen as a QB?

Put Cam behind an OL of Erving-Jordan-Elflein-Miller-Moton and see how it works out.

Oh wait

[AU-panther]

Just now, Icege said:

Put Cam behind an OL of Erving-Jordan-Elflein-Miller-Moton and see how it works out.

Oh wait

first of all Cam isn't the same player as he use to be.

Also this is a historically bad O-line, nobody is saying you can win with that.

Thats the problem, the O-line is so bad its clouding everyone's judgment.  Ultimately the QB is the biggest part of equation and the hardest part to find.

So again, prime Cam and an average O-line or Clausen or Sam with a great O-line?  Which wins more?

 

 

[chbright]

Watching Brady today isn't fair: 3 probowl linemen, Evans, Gio, gronk...... He did have time today for stretches and ate them up. Same in the running game too. Now Winston back there, that team isn't the same, but damn that oline makes him look good at times with a clean pocket.

[ForJimmy]

4 hours ago, 45catfan said:

That's pretty?  In most drafts there's 1 or 2, a sometimes even 3 QB prospects that draft pundits describe as can't miss.  Not one of these guys are in that category.

Can’t miss QB prospects??? Andrew Luck was the last one I remember. I’ve yet to see a class with 3 can’t miss QB prospects. Sure you can pull a hindsight and name classes with 3 that turned out to be great, but most of them have risks…

[Icege]

14 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

first of all Cam isn't the same player as he use to be.

Also this is a historically bad O-line, nobody is saying you can win with that.

Thats the problem, the O-line is so bad its clouding everyone's judgment.  Ultimately the QB is the biggest part of equation and the hardest part to find.

So again, prime Cam and an average O-line or Clausen or Sam with a great O-line?  Which wins more?

 

 

Clausen is a historically bad QB. I'm giving you an equal comparison there. If you want something more along the lines of prime Cam and avg OL, then a better comparison would be Joe Flacco behind his 2012 OL which consisted of Oher, Yanda, Birk, Osmele, and McKinnie. I'll take the Super Bowl winning combo there.

You are correct in that the QB is the most important position on the field. I'm also in agreement that the best way to find a franchise QB is to draft and develop one. You're all in on that first part (drafting), but not the second one (developing). In order to develop said franchise QB, they need to be protected. We've seen what happens to young QBs behind bad OLs; they're literally ruined. Bad habits are created and reinforced. Bad defenses force their offenses into predictable play calling situations, which sets the young QBs up to fail. 

On top of that, what resources does this team have to build the OL with? Are you proposing that the $29M in cap space, with rookie draft picks yet to be paid and free agent holes on the defense also needing to be filled, is enough to reboot the OL?

Edited January 16, 2022 by Icege
Any excuse to use a semicolon is a good excuse

[ForJimmy]

22 minutes ago, Icege said:

Put Cam behind an OL of Erving-Jordan-Elflein-Miller-Moton and see how it works out.

Oh wait

Put this same Cam on the Pats and see how they do…. Oh wait.

[amcoolio]

Our QB's had plenty of time in a fair amount of games this year, they just can't complete passes. 

This was always about QB...not Rhule or Brady or Tepper. It's extremely hard to find a good one.

[WOW!!]

1 minute ago, amcoolio said:

Our QB's had plenty of time in a fair amount of games this year, they just can't complete passes. 

This was always about QB...not Rhule or Brady or Tepper. It's extremely hard to find a good one.

Lol

[AU-panther]

4 minutes ago, Icege said:

Clausen is a historically bad QB. I'm giving you an equal comparison there. If you want something more along the lines of prime Cam and avg OL, then a better comparison would be Joe Flacco behind his 2012 OL which consisted of Oher, Yanda, Birk, Osmele, and McKinnie. I'll take the Super Bowl winning combo there.

You are correct in that the QB is the most important position on the field. I'm also in agreement that the best way to find a franchise QB is to draft and develop one. You're all in on that first part (drafting), but not the second one (developing). In order to develop said franchise QB, they need to be protected. We've seen what happens to young QBs behind bad OLs; they're literally ruined. Bad habits are created and reinforced. Bad defenses force their offenses into predictable play calling situations, which sets the young QBs up to fail. 

On top of that, what resources does this team have to build the OL with? Are you proposing that the $29M in cap space, with rookie draft picks yet to be paid and free agent holes on the defense also needing to be filled, is enough to reboot the OL?

What is easier to find?  A franchise QB or an above average O-line.  It's the O-line and it's not even close. 

That is my only point, if you think you have the opportunity to draft a QB that you feel good about you take it.  It's easier to fix an O-line on demand then finding an elite QB.  I'm not saying the class has that guy for sure, but my only point is you can fix the O-line all you want and it doesn't change the fact sooner or later you have to find a good QB.  If anythign you might waste years of the good o-line not having a QB.  Look at the browns all of those years, they had one of the best LTs of all time and he was wasted because they could never find a QB.

I'm all for drafting O-line, we should have done it while we had a QB.

Do you feel better about rebooting the QB position with $29m in cap space?  You can fix this line without spending a 1st round pick.  

 

 

[ForJimmy]

37 minutes ago, Icege said:

It means exactly what it says. We had a franchise QB in Cam Newton. The first two season with that franchise QB, he had an OL and set records across the league during his first two seasons. However, a leaky defense prevented the team from being able to make it to the postseason. In 2013, the defense is strong and the OL is solid (Gross-Wharton-Kalil-Scott-Bell) but has question marks on the right side. The team makes the playoffs but are promptly eliminated by the 49ers. They make the playoffs again in 2014 but mainly because the rest of the NFC South blows. The OL? Bell-Scott-Kalil-Turner-Jones to start, but towards the end of the season it was Bell-Norwell-Kalil-Turner-Remmers. They're eliminated by Seattle after beating Arizona in the wildcard. In 2015 when the team had a top 5 defense and an OL with a legit LT? 15-1 (just imagine if Williams had replaced Remmers sooner) and a Super Bowl trip.

We see the tired debate of QB vs OL every offseason. The OP lists Burrow and Allen as reasons for going QB at #6, but if you want to talk about how small somebody's perspective looks then take a look at the idea that those QBs and QBs alone are why those teams are currently advancing in the playoffs.

Hell, we just watched Mahomes lose a Super Bowl because of a subpar OL. Let's actually learn from mistakes rather than repeating them and insisting it'll be different this time.

So if our line is subpar we can make it to the Super Bowl with a great QB (who lost to the GOAT)? Rodgers locked up the 1 seed with 3 backup OL playing. LAC had possibly the worst OL when they took Herbert as did the Bengals with Burrow and the Cardinals with Murray. A QB will always triumph the OL and rightfully so. I just don’t want Rhule picking/developing that QB. I’d rather keep it safe/boring and draft OL so it’s the least likely Rhule fugs it up. Let our new coach draft his QB next year. 
I do think this class isn’t as bad as everyone thinks. Strong, Pickett, Willis, Howell, Corral all have good traits and that WKU guy put up some crazy stats.  Next year it’s Young and Stroud. Young is small with loads of talent around him and people are going to question Stroud because he played at OSU (I think it’s dumb, but it happens). Outside if those 2 who knows? 

[mrcompletely11]

9 minutes ago, amcoolio said:

Our QB's had plenty of time in a fair amount of games this year, they just can't complete passes. 

This was always about QB...not Rhule or Brady or Tepper. It's extremely hard to find a good one.

Which games?

[45catfan]

19 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Can’t miss QB prospects??? Andrew Luck was the last one I remember. I’ve yet to see a class with 3 can’t miss QB prospects. Sure you can pull a hindsight and name classes with 3 that turned out to be great, but most of them have risks…

Actually it's just the opposite.  Usually a QB class is talked up being better than they actually are.  Will the 2020 or 2021 QB classes be a good as they as the were hyped to be?  Chances are, probably not.  To my point, if the draftnics that are usually QB gung-ho are so ambivalent about this QB class, that's really REALLY telling.