Ellis Williams (Observer) offense analysis

[Waldo]

32 minutes ago, jayboogieman said:

To be fair, I don't think JR ever cared either. Both seem to be happy or at least content as long as the team is making them money.

I'm not a JR fan but he learned some hard lessons. The two I mentioned changed the way the team was run top down. We used to show a video of shame to guys to let them know not to get on that video, that started after Carruth. He cared about PR for sure. 

He did put his people and ways above winning unfortunately. Hurney being here 14 years, 2010s huge list of missteps and failures and plenty more deserved criticisms. Meh, none of this will be perfect, I just hope Tepper gets better. If not, it's time to hind another hobby. 

[FugginPoo]

Nobody good is going to sign to work with Rhule in an obvious lame duck season

[BIGH2001]

5 minutes ago, Waldo said:

I'm not a JR fan but he learned some hard lessons. The two I mentioned changed the way the team was run top down. We used to show a video of shame to guys to let them know not to get on that video, that started after Carruth. He cared about PR for sure. 

He did put his people and ways above winning unfortunately. Hurney being here 14 years, 2010s huge list of missteps and failures and plenty more deserved criticisms. Meh, none of this will be perfect, I just hope Tepper gets better. If not, it's time to hind another hobby. 

The sad thing about this year’s team is it’s 2010 with an effort to win. In 2010 the team was as close to a tank as you will see in the NFL.

[Proudiddy]

 

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Brady wasn't great but the other options were worse. That was just CYA for Rhule and now we have more confirmation on how bad this staff is at this level. 

As someone who wanted Brady as OC that offseason, and then wanted him fired this season, it was a tough lesson to learn, but it is clear it was not him.  What we're seeing is Rhule's idea of what he thinks a successful system is - and the offense makes up probably 15% of that system.  He invests minimally in it, and as such, ideally, he wants a game manager who has little impact, good or bad, on the game itself, and he wants to control the clock.  Thats why he dumped Cam for Teddy and then Sam, and he thought that would be enough that the offense could just be put on autopilot with his basic skeleton of how it should be run and what it should look like. 

I think he sees the spread and short passes out of it as an extension of the running game, but the problem is, he and his whole staff are so incompetent, they don't realize they have to mix things up so defenses don't know what they're running every play.  As I have been saying, and as the article pointed out with Sam, when people started yelling about Cam not throwing it deep, it had nothing to do with Cam and everything to so with the offense.  It is remedial and archaic.  Sam literally attempted ZERO passes beyond 20 yards on Sunday, BY DESIGN.  So, every Sunday, we have teams sitting just above these short and intermediate routes waiting to jump them, run the routes for them, or destroy our guys once it is caught, because they know exactly what we're running every play.  It's a joke.. we as outsiders couldn't know it was Rhule until Brady was fired...  but now we know.  Boy, do we know - it's all Rhule.

1 hour ago, ladypanther said:

If you can do it 26% of the time and it works, why can't you use it more?  Instead, the OC takes what is not working and uses it 74% of the time.

You should absolutely be able to, LP.  I think back to that year the Broncos inserted The Golden Calf of Bristol in the lineup under John Fox.  Now, obviously, our familiarity with John Fox allows us to know that he was no offensive guru.  He stayed true to his defensive roots and allowed his offensive staff to handle that side of the ball,, but he still oversaw it and had a general idea of how it should run...  but, that year, they had Mike McCoy running the offense (who also had his ties to here), who. Although respected, I don't think has ever been considered some innovative, cutting-edge offensive coach, but a very good one.  But his ability to adapt and adjust from Kyle Orton (iirc) to The Golden Calf of Bristol in the middle of a season, was absolutely remarkable.  I believe much of what they ran with The Golden Calf of Bristol wasn't even originally in their playbook, in large part because they inherited him from McDaniels and it was already clear he was a square peg even under McDaniels.  Regardless, they installed entirely new concepts mid-season and made it work...  all the way to the playoffs.

For all the flack John Fox has gotten over the years, I don't think he gets enough credit.  Is he conservative to a fault by default?  Yes.  But, that guy was smart.  He knew how to get the most out of the least.  He adapted.  He adjusted.  And most of all, he was a professional.  He knew when to delegate and when to take a step back when something was out of his depths.  He knew how to coach guys on this level.  None of which are characteristics Matt Rhule possesses.

[CatMan72]

Yeah I thought we were going to move to a power/play action scheme with Brady gone but we’re still running this spread concept and it boggles my mind!

[Waldo]

6 minutes ago, BIGH2001 said:

The sad thing about this year’s team is it’s 2010 with an effort to win. In 2010 the team was as close to a tank as you will see in the NFL.

2010 got us Cam and winning where this year just got us another 2010 lol. It's like a failed tank IDK

[Waldo]

7 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

 

As someone who wanted Brady as OC that offseason, and then wanted him fired this season, it was a tough lesson to learn, but it is clear it was not him.  What we're seeing is Rhule's idea of what he thinks a successful system is - and the offense makes up probably 15% of that system.  He invests minimally in it, and as such, ideally, he wants a game manager who has little impact, good or bad, on the game itself, and he wants to control the clock.  Thats why he dumped Cam for Teddy and then Sam, and he thought that would be enough that the offense could just be put on autopilot with his basic skeleton of how it should be run and what it should look like. 

I think he sees the spread and short passes out of it as an extension of the running game, but the problem is, he and his whole staff are so incompetent, they don't realize they have to mix things up so defenses don't know what they're running every play.  As I have been saying, and as the article pointed out with Sam, when people started yelling about Cam not throwing it deep, it had nothing to do with Cam and everything to so with the offense.  It is remedial and archaic.  Sam literally attempted ZERO passes beyond 20 yards on Sunday, BY DESIGN.  So, every Sunday, we have teams sitting just above these short and intermediate routes waiting to jump them, run the routes for them, or destroy our guys once it is caught, because they know exactly what we're running every play.  It's a joke.. we as outsiders couldn't know it was Rhule until Brady was fired...  but now we know.  Boy, do we know - it's all Rhule.

 

Rhule is like a Rivera without any of the experience. He wants to be that so bad but he can't even get it close to the zip code. Brady was just really green and should have had some old hands to help him but then again if Rhule did that he may have learned enough the 1st year to not implode in his the 2nd year. 

[Proudiddy]

2 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Rhule is like a Rivera without any of the experience. He wants to be that so bad but he can't even get it close to the zip code. Brady was just really green and should have had some old hands to help him but then again if Rhule did that he may have learned enough the 1st year to not implode in his the 2nd year. 

I agree about Rhule.  But as far as Brady, hindsight is 20/20.  I wanted him because that LSU passing offense was so explosive and dynamic.  Yes, I know they had otherworldly talent, but it was clear in watching them that guys were being schemed open.  Yeah, Chase, Jefferson, and TMJ could get open on their own, but they didn't have to.  So much of what they ran was routes getting other routes open, and it very much looked like a more explosive version of what Brady learned under in New Orleans.  To further that point, New Orleans is currently running a whole receiving corps of borderline NFL talent, and yet, their passing offense is still and always will be as long as Payton is there, light-years beyond what we have - and its because of the scheme.  They make the defense make decisions...  defense have to give something up every play, but they have to decide what that is.  So, taking that back to Brady, that looked exactly like what he ran at LSU, so I figured thats what we were getting here.  But, after seeing what we ran for over a year and a half under him, and now seeing the offense without him, and combining that with what we know about Rhule apparently being a dictator both in scheme and personnel and all things trivial...  it's clear this offense was not Joe Brady's.  This offense wasn't LSU.  This offense wasn't New Orleans.  This offense was and is Matt Rhule's, and what we saw while Brady was here was Brady trying to fit that square peg into a round hole...  he was given the ability to call plays, but within the strict confines of what Rhule expected.  And now with Nixon that has been crystallized.

[L-TownCat]

Good stuff @ladypanther

[Mr. Scot]

The biggest lesson to learn from the Brady hiring and firing is that experience matters.

I know NFL teams are crazy to find the next Sean McVay but they'd be smarter to try and find the next Frank Reich.

[Waldo]

10 minutes ago, Proudiddy said:

I agree about Rhule.  But as far as Brady, hindsight is 20/20.  I wanted him because that LSU passing offense was so explosive and dynamic.  Yes, I know they had otherworldly talent, but it was clear in watching them that guys were being schemed open.  Yeah, Chase, Jefferson, and TMJ could get open on their own, but they didn't have to.  So much of what they ran was routes getting other routes open, and it very much looked like a more explosive version of what Brady learned under in New Orleans.  To further that point, New Orleans is currently running a whole receiving corps of borderline NFL talent, and yet, their passing offense is still and always will be as long as Payton is there, light-years beyond what we have - and its because of the scheme.  They make the defense make decisions...  defense have to give something up every play, but they have to decide what that is.  So, taking that back to Brady, that looked exactly like what he ran at LSU, so I figured thats what we were getting here.  But, after seeing what we ran for over a year and a half under him, and now seeing the offense without him, and combining that with what we know about Rhule apparently being a dictator both in scheme and personnel and all things trivial...  it's clear this offense was not Joe Brady's.  This offense wasn't LSU.  This offense wasn't New Orleans.  This offense was and is Matt Rhule's, and what we saw while Brady was here was Brady trying to fit that square peg into a round hole...  he was given the ability to call plays, but within the strict confines of what Rhule expected.  And now with Nixon that has been crystallized.

Brady's resume was incredibly green but also promising when we hired him. It was torpedoed by putting him with Rhule's guys and not at least one guy who would show him the ropes well before a game was ever called. I still think Brady makes it long term, he just needs more experience with a functional organization and not this pooshow. 

I don't know the dynamics but I think Rhule had more hands-on input this year when he had his 'guy' at QB and it started to turn bad in week 4. IDK how much where but some of that was on Brady before that, obviously not close to all of it. Maybe Brady will open up and let us know about his amazing time here with Rhule, that would be enlightening for sure. 

[Shotgun]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Then it's time to walk away when this is confirmed IMO. What's the point? Anyone that has been in a really bad relationship knows how good being free from that wasted life really is. 

Keeping Rhule another year isn't enough confirmation of that, it's just a dumb move by someone that doesn't know what they are doing.

The unfortunate truth is that Tepper wins even when the panthers lose. His investment in this team will make him millions either way.  

[Donald LaFell]

This whole situation is just awful, we need to properly bottom out and rebuild.  This purgatory is unbearable. The star talents don’t deserve this. 

[PNW_PantherMan]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

The biggest lesson to learn from the Brady hiring and firing is that experience matters.

I know NFL teams are crazy to find the next Sean McVay but they'd be smarter to try and find the next Frank Reich.

It's interesting you mention Frank Reich, because the Colts are a great example of how to reclaim a QB.  For us, you have Matt Rhule that traded for Sam Darnold without watching film, and puts him in an identical situation to the NYJ where he failed miserably.

Frank Reich goes after Carson Wentz, who has not only played at a MVP level in the NFL, but someone Reich is familiar with on the football field and locker room.  They give him one of the best offensive lines in football and a strong running game, and all of a sudden Carson Wentz is saving his career.

It's basically the opposite of everything about the Darnold situation.