2020 Offensive Line vs. 2021 Offensive Line

[thennek]

Let's talk O-Line and solutions for 2022:  Of course, we all want a new LT and etc, but is this realistic, and with this coaching staff does it make a difference:

The 2020 O-Line was ranked 18 at year end.  Okung played like half the games, and so LT was a revolving door of Okung, Little and Scott.  LG was also a revolving door of Reed, Daley, and Schofield.  C was mostly Paradis but some Larsen.  RG was John Miller, and LT Moton.  In 2020, the right side of the Panthers O-line with Miller and Moton was average to sometimes solid.  Even with all of the changes at LT and LG, the Panthers 2020 O-line was clearly better than the 2021 O-line (not that the 2020 line was super great, but easily better than 2021).  Latest rankings show the Panthers 2021 O-line to be 'near the bottom'.  

So, my question is why is the 2021 O-line so much worse than 2020?  Clearly, Miller has taken a step back as has Scott and Daley.  Losing Larsen, Reed, Schofield, Okung, and Little should not have made this much of a negative difference.  Not that Erving, Eflein, Daley, Scott, Miller and etc are top tier offensive lineman, but I don't see how they are significantly worse than last year.  Obviously, more talent is needed, but I am wondering if there may be a combination of several other things missing.  In other words, maybe talent would not be enough to fix the problem.  With the right scheme and consistency, this o-line could/should be significantly better.  This would be a coaching issue.....

One thing noticed is the Panthers have had a combination of 12 different starters in their 15-games this year.  Some of this is due to injury, but much of it is due to coaching decisions.  Consistency and scheme seem to be missing from this o-line.  As an example, Gross and Wharton had consistency and were even were neighbors and carpooled together.  Those two had mojo when playing side by side.  Either the Panthers have not 'picked guys' that fit 'their scheme', or they are not putting them in a position to be successful.  Too many changes....IE - Brady C has played, RT, RG, LG, and LT this year as a rookie.  How can this be setting him up for success?  Scott and Daley has also been moved around quite a bit.  Even the best players are not able to constantly change positions.  Again, Miller and Moton were a pretty good combo last year, but are not this year. 

With all of the holes on this team (DT, MLB, S, TE, QB) and with limited draft picks I don't think the Panthers will have the resources to completely gut the o-line and start over.  And if scheme, consistently, and coaching is contributing to terrible o-line play, new talent will not make that much of a difference.  I truly believe some of these o-line guys are salvageable enough to be adequate...clearly need a stud C and LG as maybe, just maybe Brady could be an avg LT.

BTW - Rhule has made a complete mess of this 'rebuild'.  The QB situation could not be worse but that is another topic, but unfortunately related to the o-line.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BlitzMonster]

This is a great post !   Very good observation and thinking about the O-line.

I am also surprised at how bad our OL has played this season.  The moving players around constantly has  contributed to the offensive failures this season without a doubt.  It's almost like a case study in how not to handle an NFL line.

I think the whole problem started with Rhule's talent evaluation of Erving and Elflein.  Here were two guy with poor recent performances that had bounced around the league.  Both of them had significant injury histories.  Yet Rhule signed them on the first day of free agency to relatively big contracts.   I think Rhule somehow believed he / his staff could "coach up" these guys and that they could be capable starters for the Panthers.  

Well the reality is that the pair were exactly what the entire NFL knew they were - not very good and injury prone.  Rhule thought he was being smarter than the rest of the league but he just showed how naive he was in the pro game.   And this was from a guy who coached the Giants OL !!   Did Rhule not learn anything from that experience.  

The cascade effect from the decision to sign Erving / Elflein meant that the team no longer felt pressure to go OL in the draft.   So they missed out on taking LT Rashawn Slater who went a few picks after ours and made the Pro Bowl his rookie season.  

[ForJimmy]

It’s coaching. Miller, Scott, and Daley (at G) have looked decent in the past. Also looks like BC might be benched for Erving while MJ and Miller will be starting…

https://www.si.com/nfl/panthers/.amp/gm-report/carolina-panthers-release-depth-chart-vs-saints-12-29
 

The only think left interesting in this team was if BC can progress into a decent LT, but we might not even know this year… 

[Toomers]

   They let Miller sit out there in FA for weeks. And a 27yo RG who has started 72 games in 6 years couldn’t  get an offer. So he had to take a league minimum, NON -guaranteed contract to play here. If they signed him to be a backup, that’s fine. But they put him right back in as starter. Listen to what the rest of the NFL was trying to tell you. 

[BlitzMonster]

13 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

The only think left interesting in this team was if BC can progress into a decent LT, but we might not even know this year… 

That's the infuriating thing about Rhule.  It's a lost season so why not play the rookies ??   But he keeps trotting out the same bunch of vets for the OL that we already know are not good.  

For next year's planning you have to know what you've got with the current group of rookies.  

[Mr. Scot]

Guess you'd have to say this line is more Rhule's line than last year.

[Newbie]

3 hours ago, BlitzMonster said:

This is a great post !   Very good observation and thinking about the O-line.

I am also surprised at how bad our OL has played this season.  The moving players around constantly has  contributed to the offensive failures this season without a doubt.  It's almost like a case study in how not to handle an NFL line.

I think the whole problem started with Rhule's talent evaluation of Erving and Elflein.  Here were two guy with poor recent performances that had bounced around the league.  Both of them had significant injury histories.  Yet Rhule signed them on the first day of free agency to relatively big contracts.   I think Rhule somehow believed he / his staff could "coach up" these guys and that they could be capable starters for the Panthers.  

Well the reality is that the pair were exactly what the entire NFL knew they were - not very good and injury prone.  Rhule thought he was being smarter than the rest of the league but he just showed how naive he was in the pro game.   And this was from a guy who coached the Giants OL !!   Did Rhule not learn anything from that experience.  

The cascade effect from the decision to sign Erving / Elflein meant that the team no longer felt pressure to go OL in the draft.   So they missed out on taking LT Rashawn Slater who went a few picks after ours and made the Pro Bowl his rookie season.  

They also missed out on a no brainer in Trey Smith in the 6th. At least Rhule drafted his long snapping man crush Fletch instead.  

[Newbie]

2 hours ago, BlitzMonster said:

That's the infuriating thing about Rhule.  It's a lost season so why not play the rookies ??   But he keeps trotting out the same bunch of vets for the OL that we already know are not good.  

For next year's planning you have to know what you've got with the current group of rookies.  

Deonte Brown needs to be playing one of the guard spots as well as BC at LT. It is painful to watch them get little to no opportunity to improve with a bunch of buster ass jimmies playing ahead of them. 

[ForJimmy]

3 minutes ago, Newbie said:

Deonte Brown needs to be playing one of the guard spots as well as BC at LT. It is painful to watch them get little to no opportunity to improve with a bunch of buster ass jimmies playing ahead of them. 

It’s all about Rhule trying to “win now” with the “rebuild” excuse still in his pocket. 

[Mr. Scot]

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

It’s all about Rhule trying to “win now” with the “rebuild” excuse still in his pocket. 

That's actually a pretty good summary of it.

If we win, he takes credit. If we lose, "we're still rebuilding".

Edited December 29, 2021 by Mr. Scot

[L-TownCat]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's actually a pretty good summary of it.

If we win, he takes credit. If we lose, "we're still rebuilding".

He'd make a good politician.  (or bad depending on your view)

[Jackie Lee]

14 minutes ago, Newbie said:

Deonte Brown needs to be playing one of the guard spots as well as BC at LT. It is painful to watch them get little to no opportunity to improve with a bunch of buster ass jimmies playing ahead of them. 

Imagine if we had Deonte Brown and Trey Smith in the interior for 4 years on rookie late round deals

[Michael G]

With a new OC and maybe new OL coach, even if Rhule stays, I'd expect an overhaul of the offense. We have to have a new scheme and maybe a new QB. I'd expect a revamped line but I'm not sure who would start on it besides Moton that is still on the roster. Rhule seemed to Love Michael Jordan at LG but his recent performance would indicate he's gone (at least by any reasonable HC).

[Newbie]

4 minutes ago, Jackie Lee said:

Imagine if we had Deonte Brown and Trey Smith in the interior for 4 years on rookie late round deals

Of course we don’t know what we have in Brown yet but Trey looks great. Rhule is so arrogant he thought we were all set at OL and passed on a gift that fell in his lap for frigging Fletcher. We could’ve had Slater and Humphrey, two rookie Pro Bowlers over Horn and the invisible TMJ. Still picked BC as a LG or swing tackle and Brown and Smith in the 6th round.