How good are they really?

[bigdog10]

Moore-would be a good teams incredible WR2. Is a middle of the pack WR1 and not a game breaker. 
 

Chinn-out of position. Absolutely no reason he should be out of the box with his ability to tackle and hit. 
 

Burns-The giants exposed our defense and subsequently how to prevent burns from popping off. The read option coupled with power runs his was, completely erase him. It also doesn’t do him any favors that we haven’t been playing with a lead in a while. Great player though. 
 

Carter-great depth. Absolutely should not be a full time starter at MLB. 
 

Derrick Brown-unless he’s injured and we don’t know it, he’s easily the most disappointing player on the panthers this year.  We didn’t draft him to wreck the qb, but he’s having zero impact on games in the pass or the run  

Phil Snow-He’s the coach id blame the least for the recent struggles but his defense has been a bit exposed due to its personnel. I don’t necessarily think it is his scheme. 
 

 

[JawnyBlaze]

I think in most cases it’s a matter of losing faith in Rhule. DJ and Anderson have been very obviously mailing it in for weeks now. Brown and Chinn are studs that are being misused. Carter was never that good. He’s a placeholder and backup. Burns is good but he’s not a dominant DE, too small for that. Probably deserves more credit than he gets around here, he might “barely miss” a lot but when he barely misses someone else often benefits from it. Snow’s scheme is good against some offenses but he isn’t good enough to adjust apparently. 

[BrianS]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Curious whether anybody would be in favor of moving Chinn to linebacker...

Wouldn't be against it, but it would be tough.  He'd have to put on a lot of weight / muscle to do that.

He's a lot smaller than TD was when he came in.

[onmyown]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

It's a valid option.

Counterpoint to that though, systems don't drop passes and miss tackles.

not so sure about that

the huddle seems convinced they throw interceptions 

[Eazy-E]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

It's a valid option.

Counterpoint to that though, systems don't drop passes and miss tackles.

If said system is frustrating players to the point of mental lapses / not caring / giving up on the coaching staff it will cause those things.

A lot of those things can be looked at as business decisions and sometimes it may not be worth the extra hits or potential injury for a coaching staff you want gone.

The last few weeks to me looks like a team that’s already thrown the towel in on the season.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Eazy-E

[CRA]

51 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Curious whether anybody would be in favor of moving Chinn to linebacker...

I'd like him moved to LB.  

 

[CRA]

24 minutes ago, BrianS said:

Wouldn't be against it, but it would be tough.  He'd have to put on a lot of weight / muscle to do that.

He's a lot smaller than TD was when he came in.

15 lbs or so shouldn't be that hard for a pro athlete.  They literally have professional that will say eat X and boom. 

[grimesgoat]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

This season has been a rollercoaster not only in the win-loss column, but on the field as well.

We've got several guys on the team right now that have seemed to go back and forth between greatness and mediocrity.

So my question for the following names would be how good are they really, and why.

Starting with...

DJ MOORE

Was looking like the next big thing, but has struggled with drops as the season went on. Which version of Moore is the true one and which is the illusion?

BRIAN BURNS

Started off this year looking like an absolute nightmare for opposing offenses, but nobody seems to be all that scared of Burns anymore. In fact, teams are often running right at him and his "sack contest" with Haason Reddick has turned into a pretty one-sided affair. What happened, and can it be fixed?

DERRICK BROWN

The top pick in Matt Rhule's first draft has gone from a future star to being benched. Was Brown overrated to begin with or is the scheme just not doing any favors?

JEREMY CHINN

Another future star from last year who seems to have all but disappeared. Since being slotted into the free safety role, Chinn has still shown up in games but at nowhere near the level he did before. Is it a sophomore slump, is he miscast in his current role or is there something more to the story?

ROBBY ANDERSON

That nice extension he got looks like a boondoggle now. Unlike most of the others, Anderson didn't go from looking good initially to looking bad later. Heck, early on it felt like Anderson couldn't catch anything. These days, he's getting open and hauling in a few more than he did, but is that production worth what he's being paid?

JERMAINE CARTER

Carter was always mostly a "try hard" type player. He wound up starting primarily because the guy that was expected to anchor the middle linebacker spot soured his relationship with team leadership. At this point, Carter is probably a nicer story than he is a player, but can he still be what the team needs in the middle or is it time to move on?

PHIL SNOW

The only non-player on the list, but with a similar story to many others.  Snow looked like a genius in the first few games of the year, but more recent results (especially the last two weeks) have been decidedly less awesome. Did he get figured out or are his players letting him down?

______________________________

Sound off, folks. Who on this list is genuinely good and who's truly just...not?

This is an interesting topic that will challenge the critical thinking skills of a lot of people on here.  I've observed a number of our "fans" will see a play where a guy messed up or hear the announcer say something negative about a player and project it out over a guys season or career.  I think this will really separate the solid posters that contribute vs. the reactionary dummies.

DJ Moore - Solid possession receiver.  Already has as many receptions and TDs as all of last year with 5 games left.  Yards per catch is way down, probably a system issue as our OL just can't block anyone.  Would like to extend him, but not more than 10m per.  If he does not sign an extension in that ballpark next year, I start giving Marshall and Shi a lot more reps.

Burns - Seems to be less effective but numbers say different.  Last year: 9 sacks and 8 tackles for loss.  This year: 8 sacks and 12 tackles for loss already.  He will probably end up with 11-12 sacks and 15 TFLs this year.  Those kind of numbers easily net a 12-15m salary on the open market.  we got him for around 4m for a couple more years.

Brown - stud.  Has already matched his PD, SK, and Tackle numbers from last year with 5 games left.  He's there to absorb double teams and that's what he's doing despite getting "benched".  I've seen him labeled a mistake and a bust, a dead giveaway of football intelligence.

Jeremy Chinn - switched positions but still effective.  Had 117 tackles last year and is tracking toward 110 this year.  Last year he had 2 TFLs but already 5 this year.  Dude had 13 tackles just 2 weeks ago vs. Washington.  He has hardly disappeared, you only need to know where to look.

Carter - Solid career so far for a 5th rounder who is making under $1m this year.  Hope we can find similar production from one of our 5th rounders this year as I don't want to pay the guy.

Anderson - huge huge disappointment.  Tracking toward his worst season by far.  We seriously screwed up handing out that contract as he started to fade last year.  Probably the biggest blunder this FO has made in the last 2-3 years.  What were they thinking.

Again - thanks to Mr. Scot for starting this conversation. 

 

 

[CRA]

23 minutes ago, grimesgoat said:

 

Brown - stud.  Has already matched his PD, SK, and Tackle numbers from last year with 5 games left.  He's there to absorb double teams and that's what he's doing despite getting "benched".  I've seen him labeled a mistake and a bust, a dead giveaway of football intelligence.

 

Now this part I can really get down with, Brown was benched for not playing how they need him to play. Laregely IMO a motivation tool.   Not because he is a DL version of our OL.   Brown has crazy tools.  Tools to be dominate.   And the benching IMO was to really drive home he really needs to focus on the little things to actually maximze his talent.  

I don't know if he will live up to expectation or not, he is super young still and the trenches is a tough game.   But his expecations and bar is high.  So even if he doesn't hit it.....that alone won't make him bad.  Given where he was drafted, the bar for him is dominance inside.  Not just being pretty good IMO. 

[Khyber53]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

This season has been a rollercoaster not only in the win-loss column, but on the field as well.

We've got several guys on the team right now that have seemed to go back and forth between greatness and mediocrity.

So my question for the following names would be how good are they really, and why.

Starting with...

DJ MOORE

Was looking like the next big thing, but has struggled with drops as the season went on. Which version of Moore is the true one and which is the illusion?

BRIAN BURNS

Started off this year looking like an absolute nightmare for opposing offenses, but nobody seems to be all that scared of Burns anymore. In fact, teams are often running right at him and his "sack contest" with Haason Reddick has turned into a pretty one-sided affair. What happened, and can it be fixed?

DERRICK BROWN

The top pick in Matt Rhule's first draft has gone from a future star to being benched. Was Brown overrated to begin with or is the scheme just not doing any favors?

JEREMY CHINN

Another future star from last year who seems to have all but disappeared. Since being slotted into the free safety role, Chinn has still shown up in games but at nowhere near the level he did before. Is it a sophomore slump, is he miscast in his current role or is there something more to the story?

ROBBY ANDERSON

That nice extension he got looks like a boondoggle now. Unlike most of the others, Anderson didn't go from looking good initially to looking bad later. Heck, early on it felt like Anderson couldn't catch anything. These days, he's getting open and hauling in a few more than he did, but is that production worth what he's being paid?

JERMAINE CARTER

Carter was always mostly a "try hard" type player. He wound up starting primarily because the guy that was expected to anchor the middle linebacker spot soured his relationship with team leadership. At this point, Carter is probably a nicer story than he is a player, but can he still be what the team needs in the middle or is it time to move on?

PHIL SNOW

The only non-player on the list, but with a similar story to many others.  Snow looked like a genius in the first few games of the year, but more recent results (especially the last two weeks) have been decidedly less awesome. Did he get figured out or are his players letting him down?

______________________________

Sound off, folks. Who on this list is genuinely good and who's truly just...not?

Moore: He has it, but it's become apparent as the season went on, he's not going out of his way to use it. There's a good catch or two, but he isn't contesting them or breaking through tackles like before. He's a good player, but it has become obvious he isn't pushing for great right now. And really, what's the use at this point? He's playing like he wants to either be somewhere else or have the coaching staff somewhere else. I do not think he and Robby are the team that he and Curtis Samuel were, or the friends they were. 

Burns: More than anything I think he's suffering from the real weakness of the defense --  they are undersized across the board, built for speed. Burns benefitted from being the fast guy who could shoot the gaps opened up by monsters on the line. Now, he's just one of a bunch of speedsters. We're also not blitzing almost at all. Still, he's getting pressures and sacks and strips. Better effort from DTs would benefit him, as would Chinn heading back into the box more.

Anderson: I just can't stand the guy. He got a huge contract based on Temple ties and the first four games of last season. Dude couldn't catch a frikkin' cold much less a pass. Threw his QB under the bus when he couldn't get open and dropped passes that hit him square in both hands. Buddied up immediately with Cam, but couldn't catch any of his passes either. Give him an apple and a bus ticket home.

Carter: I've got to agree with you. He has the story I like seeing and I wanted him to succeed. He's better than Whitehead, that's for sure, but that wasn't a high bar to clear. It's not that he's terribly out of place or doesn't hit hard, he's just a notch slower than what you want/need him to be. He's 85% of a starting LB and I can see how he got in there, but he's really set up to be a solid back-up guy.

Coach Snow: Last year, I said he coached our defense to play like a bunch of old ladies who had a fancy dinner scheduled for right after each game. This season, he came out like gangbusters with a smothering defense that looked different and innovative. That's probably because I don't watch a lot of college football. Sadly, opposing coaches who did watch a lot of it figured out how to dismantle it pretty quick. People still bandy about how good our defense is statistically, but most of that comes from just about blanking three teams at the beginning of the year and having some games where our run defense was so bad that opposing teams didn't need to pass for 200 yards to beat the dogwater out of us. The guy is going to be a real problem in the MAC or Sunbelt conference, but he just can't hang with the big dogs, or coach the big dogs. 

In short, the players aren't performing, no one seems to be growing in ability, opposing teams have their way with our offense, defense and special teams, and probably with Sir Purr, too. We suck and if we don't change soon, we are going to ruin some good players and become the place no one wants to be. Check with Detroit, Cleveland, Jacksonville and Houston for how that is.

We need to clean house quickly and thoroughly.

[Khyber53]

Oh, I missed Brown in all of that.

Brown: Big guys who are as disruptive as he was don't just fall off a cliff without one of a couple of things. We're not being told of injuries, but something tells me he's not giving the effort he used to and that may well be a coaching issue. Not just technique coaching, but the coaching that gets players through losses and keeps them trying hard. Sometimes we forget these are very young men in a very tough, competitive job -- jobs that can be lost in a moment. Brown seems more of a player that needs to be led rather than one to be leaned on. Enough support and encouragement and he'll wreck an opposing team single handedly. One bad criticism, though, and he drops into a cycle of doubt.

 

[BlackPanther21_]

5 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

and probably with Sir Purr, too

When Sir Purr is getting his ass beat too, yeah, we should just blow it all up.

[Khyber53]

35 minutes ago, BlackPanther21_ said:

When Sir Purr is getting his ass beat too, yeah, we should just blow it all up.

Why is that bear crying?

[ColumbusCounty]

3 hours ago, BrianS said:

Our team has a problem with run defense.  I gotta be honest, it's damn near CRIMINAL to move Chinn further from the LOS when you know you are having trouble stopping the run.  I think our problem is that we don't have a real FS.  Burris is a SS, but not as good in the box as Chinn.  Burris however would be even worse as a FS.  Hopefully we fix that this offseason . . . somehow.

Robby was never worth what we gave him.  End.

Jermaine Carter is that guy who should sit on the bench and be that reliable backup who gives our starting MLB a breather.  He'd be great for that.

 

Damn near agree with your entire post.

Gotta say though, as I've mentioned before, this isn't the first time we've had obvious problems at stopping the run. The answer we had for that the last time was the drafting of Luke. Shaq stepped up this year but he's no Keek, he's more of a less dynamic Davis. On defense we need an starting MLB and stronger DT's in the interior. We also need to move Chinn back to linebacker. 

As luck would have it this FO let go of Perryman before he even took a snap.