Some insight into McCaffrey...

[joemac]

6 minutes ago, frankw said:

Yup after the 2016 blunder that all but completely guaranteed the end of the run with our 2015 core what do we do in 2020? An all defense draft!

Well to be fair, our defense also sucked balls for many years.  Something had to be done there too.  They coulda taken a flyer on an o lineman or 2 though, thats for sure. 

[countryboi]

They only thing I want to know is how CMC went from he could have come back in to the game to he done for the year. thats a wide gap

[frankw]

6 minutes ago, joemac said:

Well to be fair, our defense also sucked balls for many years.  Something had to be done there too.  They coulda taken a flyer on an o lineman or 2 though, thats for sure. 

True but we've also been run over by the likes of the Giants WFT and the Dolphins so we're back to square even with all that investment.

[joemac]

11 minutes ago, frankw said:

True but we've also been run over by the likes of the Giants WFT and the Dolphins so we're back to square even with all that investment.

Yeah the way this whole team is currently constructed is just ass backwards.  We're gonna continue to get mauled by power running teams until they get a good MLB, and some DE's who can set the edge and are actual NFL DE size.  I love Reddick and Burns but they are both pass rush specialists and are a liability in the run game.  So is Carter. 

[Uwontdoit81]

40 minutes ago, countryboi said:

They only thing I want to know is how CMC went from he could have come back in to the game to he done for the year. thats a wide gap

Ol’ Rhule trying for injury card as an excuse.

[RumHam]

19 hours ago, frankw said:

Fournette was the logical choice as a punishing runner paired with Cam at the time. I don't blame Leonard for failing with the Jaguars who wouldn't? The one thing you can count on with this franchise is more often than not they will make the wrong choice. Cam Newton over a defensive tackle being one of the lone exceptions over the years and if some folks here had their way it wouldn't have happened.

You know damn well if we let CMC walk, he ends up somewhere and balls out just like Fournette has. I wanted Fournette initially, but CMC ended up being the earlier choice because Fournette ended up showing injury issues. He's also a RB by committee down there. That can be had here, but we need a line. The answer isn't moving CMC to slot, I mean that can be included, but he's specifically a third down back at this point. We need a bruiser or FB for short yardage situations. Throw CMC in the lineup in the red zone. Run double tailbacks with Chubba, which they have done a little bit but it's ended up being for max protection. You can't trust Brady to do these things, and I just came up with this stuff on a whim. Defenses will focus on CMC specifically in those situations, playing up short and covering the flat, ultimately opening up something deep. But then there's that line, which is the worst offensive line this franchise has seen. 

[RumHam]

Wanna know why Mac Jones is working in New England? BECAUSE THEY BROKE THE BANK FOR AN OFFENSIVE LINE

[frankw]

14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

You know damn well if we let CMC walk, he ends up somewhere and balls out just like Fournette has. I wanted Fournette initially, but CMC ended up being the earlier choice because Fournette ended up showing injury issues. He's also a RB by committee down there. That can be had here, but we need a line. The answer isn't moving CMC to slot, I mean that can be included, but he's specifically a third down back at this point. We need a bruiser or FB for short yardage situations. Throw CMC in the lineup in the red zone. Run double tailbacks with Chubba, which they have done a little bit but it's ended up being for max protection. You can't trust Brady to do these things, and I just came up with this stuff on a whim. Defenses will focus on CMC specifically in those situations, playing up short and covering the flat, ultimately opening up something deep. But then there's that line, which is the worst offensive line this franchise has seen. 

Oh of course our oline is a disaster and Joe Brady needs to be replaced. But I just don't think McCaffrey is built for the role of a featured back and definitely not a weapon you can base your entire offense around. You gotta see the writing on the wall. Since that often touted 2019 season where he led the league in touches he's been practically made of glass ever since. It sucks but this is the reality we are living in now.

Edited December 1, 2021 by frankw

[BrianS]

10 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Wanna know why Mac Jones is working in New England? BECAUSE THEY BROKE THE BANK FOR AN OFFENSIVE LINE

Nah - that's not it.  All said and done, the Patriots are only spending 4 million above the NFL average on their OLine.  This isn't to say they don't have a very good line - they do - but they didn't grossly overspend to get there.

Mac Jones works in NE because he is literally the most Belichick QB ever.  He fits that system better than any QB in his draft.

[trueblade]

34 minutes ago, BrianS said:

Nah - that's not it.  All said and done, the Patriots are only spending 4 million above the NFL average on their OLine.  This isn't to say they don't have a very good line - they do - but they didn't grossly overspend to get there.

Mac Jones works in NE because he is literally the most Belichick QB ever.  He fits that system better than any QB in his draft.

And McDaniels might have struggled as a head coach but the guy is a top flight OC.

[Icege]

19 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

I mean, the pre-extension article comes down pretty hard on the side of McCaffrey being the right choice.

The second one? I don't know if you can say he's suggesting that we should have taken Fournette (he doesn't say that anywhere) but he does criticize the extension, including pointing out that Fournette is still going and at a much lower price.

Much as I hate to say it, that's a valid point.

Is it a valid point though?

Other RBs within $500k of Fournette's $3.25M contract: Raheem Mostert, Rashaad Penny, Tarik Cohen, Cordarelle Patterson, Kenyan Drake, and Chris Carson.

CMC's is currently just double that at ~$6.9M. At worst, he's holding the team back from another Pat Elflein contract. Joe Mixon is paid more ($8.1M), as is Melvin Gordon ($8.9M), Saquon ($10M), and Derrick Henry ($13M). Zeke is barely $80k less, so the question of value at this point is when compared to other top tier RBs where does McCaffrey's salary lie? About in the middle for those not under rookie deals.

We don't actually see the type of cap hit that folks clutch their pearls over until next season when his cap hit jumps to $14.3M. The crazy part though? That just takes him from the 5th best paid RB in 2021 to the 4th best paid RB in 2022. Kamara is slated to jump from $5M -> $14.5M, Derrick Henry goes from $13M -> $15M, and Zeke jumps from $6.8M -> $18.2M (!!!).

To put this in perspective, let's look at the rest of the RB salaries from after CMC's to about what Zeke & CMC cost this season: Dalvin Cook $12M, Joe Mixon $11.5M, Aaron Jones $9M, Kenyan Drake $8M, Saquon $7.2M, Austin Ekeler $6.5M, Chris Carson $6.5M, Kareem Hunt $6.2M.

The RBs you'd get with Fournette's contract next season? Mike Davis, Devontae Booker, Carlos Hyde, or Mark Ingram. I don't think that swapping CMC for one of those guys and an additional $9M makes this team better, especially given the guys that they've targeted on offense such as Pat Elflein, Cameron Jordan, Michael Jordan, John Miller, etc. Plus, when we look at the actual monetary value of the RB position, it isn't $1M like folks are thinking. It's $4M. Next season it'll be $6M.

I could see it being a fair point if Fournette were still with the Jaguars, but he's doing all of this while behind a TB offensive line that's in the top 3, at worst top 5 in the NFL compared to the Panthers' OL which is at the polar opposite end of the rankings. Plus, he's got Tom Brady at QB. CMC has had the shell of Cam Newton, Sam Darnold, and PJ Walker (have they actually gotten to play on the field together during a game? They might not have yet). Fournette washed out during his rookie deal, came back on a prove it deal, and balled out. He's an exception, not the norm like folks keep pretending that he is.

You know who has a deal that's in line with everyone's expectations? A player that gets paid about the same as Leonard Fournette this season and then gets paid the same as Mike Davis next season? A guy on a rookie contract: Josh Jacobs. When was he drafted? In the 1st round, which is a cardinal sin apparently... yet... it gives the numbers that folks are screaming for? 

The hand-wringing over CMC's contract is incredibly overblown by pseudo-capologists that swear by positional value over talent level, imo. Have things worked out smashingly? Not at all, but there are definitely nuances that aren't being looked at.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Icege

[Icege]

20 minutes ago, Icege said:

Is it a valid point though?

Other RBs within $500k of Fournette's $3.25M contract: Raheem Mostert, Rashaad Penny, Tarik Cohen, Cordarelle Patterson, Kenyan Drake, and Chris Carson.

CMC's is currently just double that at ~$6.9M. At worst, he's holding the team back from another Pat Elflein contract. Joe Mixon is paid more ($8.1M), as is Melvin Gordon ($8.9M), Saquon ($10M), and Derrick Henry ($13M). Zeke is barely $80k less, so the question of value at this point is when compared to other top tier RBs where does McCaffrey's salary lie? About in the middle for those not under rookie deals.

We don't actually see the type of cap hit that folks clutch their pearls over until next season when his cap hit jumps to $14.3M. The crazy part though? That just takes him from the 5th best paid RB in 2021 to the 4th best paid RB in 2022. Kamara is slated to jump from $5M -> $14.5M, Derrick Henry goes from $13M -> $15M, and Zeke jumps from $6.8M -> $18.2M (!!!).

To put this in perspective, let's look at the rest of the RB salaries from after CMC's to about what Zeke & CMC cost this season: Dalvin Cook $12M, Joe Mixon $11.5M, Aaron Jones $9M, Kenyan Drake $8M, Saquon $7.2M, Austin Ekeler $6.5M, Chris Carson $6.5M, Kareem Hunt $6.2M.

The RBs you'd get with Fournette's contract next season? Mike Davis, Devontae Booker, Carlos Hyde, or Mark Ingram. I don't think that swapping CMC for one of those guys and an additional $9M makes this team better, especially given the guys that they've targeted on offense such as Pat Elflein, Cameron Jordan, Michael Jordan, John Miller, etc. Plus, when we look at the actual monetary value of the RB position, it isn't $1M like folks are thinking. It's $4M. Next season it'll be $6M.

I could see it being a fair point if Fournette were still with the Jaguars, but he's doing all of this while behind a TB offensive line that's in the top 3, at worst top 5 in the NFL compared to the Panthers' OL which is at the polar opposite end of the rankings. Plus, he's got Tom Brady at QB. CMC has had the shell of Cam Newton, Sam Darnold, and PJ Walker (have they actually gotten to play on the field together during a game? They might not have yet). Fournette washed out during his rookie deal, came back on a prove it deal, and balled out. He's an exception, not the norm like folks keep pretending that he is.

You know who has a deal that's in line with everyone's expectations? A player that gets paid about the same as Leonard Fournette this season and then gets paid the same as Mike Davis next season? A guy on a rookie contract: Josh Jacobs. When was he drafted? In the 1st round, which is a cardinal sin apparently... yet... it gives the numbers that folks are screaming for? 

The hand-wringing over CMC's contract is incredibly overblown by pseudo-capologists that swear by positional value over talent level, imo. Have things worked out smashingly? Not at all, but there are definitely nuances that aren't being looked at.

Cameron Erving* not Cam Jordan

Also forgot to add Teddy to the list of CMC's QBs (and yes, CMC did play with PJ)

I hate the 15min edit window

Edited December 1, 2021 by Icege

[frankw]

33 minutes ago, Icege said:

The hand-wringing over CMC's contract is incredibly overblown by pseudo-capologists that swear by positional value over talent level, imo. Have things worked out smashingly? Not at all, but there are definitely nuances that aren't being looked at.

Talent that can't stay on the field. Staring down the barrel of three 5 win seasons in a row. What nuances are we missing in your opinion? You might see less pessimism if we had not mortgaged future draft capital to field this mess.

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, Icege said:

Is it a valid point though?

Other RBs within $500k of Fournette's $3.25M contract: Raheem Mostert, Rashaad Penny, Tarik Cohen, Cordarelle Patterson, Kenyan Drake, and Chris Carson.

CMC's is currently just double that at ~$6.9M. At worst, he's holding the team back from another Pat Elflein contract. Joe Mixon is paid more ($8.1M), as is Melvin Gordon ($8.9M), Saquon ($10M), and Derrick Henry ($13M). Zeke is barely $80k less, so the question of value at this point is when compared to other top tier RBs where does McCaffrey's salary lie? About in the middle for those not under rookie deals.

We don't actually see the type of cap hit that folks clutch their pearls over until next season when his cap hit jumps to $14.3M. The crazy part though? That just takes him from the 5th best paid RB in 2021 to the 4th best paid RB in 2022. Kamara is slated to jump from $5M -> $14.5M, Derrick Henry goes from $13M -> $15M, and Zeke jumps from $6.8M -> $18.2M (!!!).

To put this in perspective, let's look at the rest of the RB salaries from after CMC's to about what Zeke & CMC cost this season: Dalvin Cook $12M, Joe Mixon $11.5M, Aaron Jones $9M, Kenyan Drake $8M, Saquon $7.2M, Austin Ekeler $6.5M, Chris Carson $6.5M, Kareem Hunt $6.2M.

The RBs you'd get with Fournette's contract next season? Mike Davis, Devontae Booker, Carlos Hyde, or Mark Ingram. I don't think that swapping CMC for one of those guys and an additional $9M makes this team better, especially given the guys that they've targeted on offense such as Pat Elflein, Cameron Jordan, Michael Jordan, John Miller, etc. Plus, when we look at the actual monetary value of the RB position, it isn't $1M like folks are thinking. It's $4M. Next season it'll be $6M.

I could see it being a fair point if Fournette were still with the Jaguars, but he's doing all of this while behind a TB offensive line that's in the top 3, at worst top 5 in the NFL compared to the Panthers' OL which is at the polar opposite end of the rankings. Plus, he's got Tom Brady at QB. CMC has had the shell of Cam Newton, Sam Darnold, and PJ Walker (have they actually gotten to play on the field together during a game? They might not have yet). Fournette washed out during his rookie deal, came back on a prove it deal, and balled out. He's an exception, not the norm like folks keep pretending that he is.

You know who has a deal that's in line with everyone's expectations? A player that gets paid about the same as Leonard Fournette this season and then gets paid the same as Mike Davis next season? A guy on a rookie contract: Josh Jacobs. When was he drafted? In the 1st round, which is a cardinal sin apparently... yet... it gives the numbers that folks are screaming for? 

The hand-wringing over CMC's contract is incredibly overblown by pseudo-capologists that swear by positional value over talent level, imo. Have things worked out smashingly? Not at all, but there are definitely nuances that aren't being looked at.

There is literally no argument against the CMC deal being a bad idea. None.

What is worse is that all the hand wringing about CMC holding out seems comical now. We literally had no reason to sign that extension when we did. Had we not.....we probably don't give him that contract at all.