How much is too much for a dog?

[toldozer]

26 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Pure breeds by and large are going to have more specific health issues. It's just a matter of reality when you artificially narrow the gene pool. The breeds with the most issues are the ones with the most extreme features signifying significant selective breeding and the ones that have undergone booms in popularity encouraging scrupulous backyard breeding for a buck with little to no concern for ethical breeding practices.

Apparently that's debatable.  Hold on while I site some research that I Google and didn't read that will confirm what you said,  then we can continue to debate

[Happy Panther]

10 minutes ago, toldozer said:

Apparently that's debatable.  Hold on while I site some research that I Google and didn't read that will confirm what you said,  then we can continue to debate

I googled a bunch and read them all. It doesn't take long. And I did a bunch of research before we bought our purebred including discussing it with our local vet and my vet growing up. Of course it is debatable. To claim otherwise shows a stubbornness that is not useful in any debate.

I encourage anyone buying a puppy to do the same and make whatever decision makes you comfortable.

 

 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

11 minutes ago, toldozer said:

Apparently that's debatable.  Hold on while I site some research that I Google and didn't read that will confirm what you said,  then we can continue to debate

I'm a Rottweiler guy. I've always had a Rottie and probably always will. A lot of people who have pure breeds don't want to accept the reality that breed related health issues are real. I'm not one of them. I have a Rottweiler. That means my dog will be more likely to have hip and/or elbow dysplasia vs. the dog population at large. More likely to have a genetic related heart issue (my breeder is actually working with NCSU right now trying to identify the gene sequence for aortic stenosis in Rottweilers because it's such an issue). My dog is more likely to develop cancer, especially osteosarcoma. It is what it is. It's just reality.

Lots of popular breeds have issues. 50% of Cavalier King Charles will develop congestive heart failure by the time they're five. Virtually all of them will by 10. Literally 61% of Golden Retrievers will develop cancer. Boxers are so prone to cardiomyopathy that it's literally called Boxer cardiomyopathy. Irish Setters are the only dogs known to science to develop celiac disease. 

Genetics are real.

[toldozer]

1 hour ago, Happy Panther said:

I googled a bunch and read them all. It doesn't take long. And I did a bunch of research before we bought our purebred including discussing it with our local vet and my vet growing up. Of course it is debatable. To claim otherwise shows a stubbornness that is not useful in any debate.

I encourage anyone buying a puppy to do the same and make whatever decision makes you comfortable.

 

 

 

I feel like you're super defensive about something you are wrong about.  As a general truth purebreds have more issues than mixed breeds. That doesn't mean you can't find a breed or dogs from a specific breeder that that doesn't apply to. As a whole (not specific cases) what I said is 100% true and that makes it not an issue worth debating.  

 

Your last sentence is absolutely 100% true

Edited November 16, 2021 by toldozer

[Happy Panther]

15 minutes ago, toldozer said:

I feel like you're super defensive about something you are wrong about. 

I said it's debatable. Hard to get defensive about that.

 

[Ja Rhule]

Wife and I wanted short hair, mid size, extremely intelligent, fun, goofy and extremely protective dog that pound for pound will whoop ass so Belgian Malinois checked the box for us.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Ja Rhule

[LinvilleGorge]

I love Rotties. Those are my dogs. I'll almost certainly always have one. We have our Rottie who will be 7 in December and our rescue pittie who is about 9 months old.

I spent a good chunk of my professional life literally training veterinarians about nutrition. I was always baffled that I didn't get more pushback and questions. They just took my word on everything because of the logo on my shirt and I knew my poo up one side and down the other. Well, I started asking pointed questions on my own accord. If people are going to take my word on something, then I'm gonna ask the questions for them. The answers I got were good in some cases, marginal in others, and total dodging in a lot. There was some good research on some of the formulations. Very good data. Some of the others the data was marginal at best. Very small sample sizes or "results" that were within the expected margin of error. I went from hero to zero within the company very fast for calling this stuff out. I just didn't understand the "science". No motherfugers, I understand math and data. This poo your showing me is just that... poo. I walked. Sorry. I'm not going to be your pawn to continue misinformation campaigns. The whole DCM fiasco was the breaking point for me. The science on that was total dogshit. The FDA has since walked it back but that didn't get any publicity.

Dogs are my entire professional life and most of my personal life. There are some very good, very ethical breeders out there. They're not the root of the majority of the breed related health issues. Backyard breeders breeding for pure profit are most of the issue. What I'm about to say next is gonna trigger some people, including a lot of breeders, but... the showring is the cause of most of the rest of the issue. Breeding primarily for cosmetic traits. Letting results in the showring lead to more and more exaggerated characteristics oftentimes to the detriment of the breed. LOTS of old school very good breeders have completely dropped out of showing. The person who literally wrote the book on AKC judging of Rottweilers is completely out of showing now. Won't have anything to do with it.

[Khyber53]

Our show quality Greater Swiss Mountain Dog ran $3k last year for a female. We've picked up four best of breed ribbons and four first place owner/handler ribbons so far this autumn. The dog has excellent conformation and we knew the quality of her parents and breeder before the purchase.

Ours is a rare breed so the gene pool isn't too large, making any genetic problems a real danger. (The breed was thought extinct at the turn of the 1900s but two males and two females were found on a farm in the backwaters of Switzerland about that time and they were able to rebuild the stock). With only about 3600 or so of the breed in the US, it's both easy and darned important to know where their breeding stock came from.

Temperament is an important part of the breed, as it is in any breed. Swissies are farmer's dogs, big, strong (they were bred to pull carts for farmers who couldn't afford draft horses or mules) with a deep, rolling barooooooo bark. The breed dates back to the Roman legionnaire war dogs and are the parent stock of the Bernese and the Rottweiler. Though imposing, they're very friendly and non-aggressive, more of a sentry dog than a guard dog. They have a mild herding instinct and naturally lay across thresholds, probably as a corraling or stalling measure to assist farmers in animal handling. 

And on instinct, before buying a pitbull, if you've never owned one: Please consider what the breed was bred for. Those are fighting dogs, pure and simple. If they are purebred then that is very strong in their bloodlines and if this is a reputable breeder then you can be sure that the parents were well trained. The puppies don't come trained at all, so you will really need to be committed to working on curbing that fight/kill instinct in the dog. This isn't for the casual owner. Before anyone starts on the "pits have a bad, undeserved reputation" you have to realize that breeds breed true and traits were built into them selectively. Greyhounds run, coon hounds chase, beagles bark, border collies herd, terriers will chase rats and tear up toys -- this is in the very fibers of their beings. To curb those instincts takes a lot of hard work and diligence, and you'll never know for sure you've got  it under your control. Please think before getting a pit bull. 

[Khyber53]

Oh and here's some info on the breed:

https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/lifestyle/the-greater-swiss-mountain-dog/

 

[GOAT]

13 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Our show quality Greater Swiss Mountain Dog ran $3k last year for a female. We've picked up four best of breed ribbons and four first place owner/handler ribbons so far this autumn. The dog has excellent conformation and we knew the quality of her parents and breeder before the purchase.

Ours is a rare breed so the gene pool isn't too large, making any genetic problems a real danger. (The breed was thought extinct at the turn of the 1900s but two males and two females were found on a farm in the backwaters of Switzerland about that time and they were able to rebuild the stock). With only about 3600 or so of the breed in the US, it's both easy and darned important to know where their breeding stock came from.

Temperament is an important part of the breed, as it is in any breed. Swissies are farmer's dogs, big, strong (they were bred to pull carts for farmers who couldn't afford draft horses or mules) with a deep, rolling barooooooo bark. The breed dates back to the Roman legionnaire war dogs and are the parent stock of the Bernese and the Rottweiler. Though imposing, they're very friendly and non-aggressive, more of a sentry dog than a guard dog. They have a mild herding instinct and naturally lay across thresholds, probably as a corraling or stalling measure to assist farmers in animal handling. 

And on instinct, before buying a pitbull, if you've never owned one: Please consider what the breed was bred for. Those are fighting dogs, pure and simple. If they are purebred then that is very strong in their bloodlines and if this is a reputable breeder then you can be sure that the parents were well trained. The puppies don't come trained at all, so you will really need to be committed to working on curbing that fight/kill instinct in the dog. This isn't for the casual owner. Before anyone starts on the "pits have a bad, undeserved reputation" you have to realize that breeds breed true and traits were built into them selectively. Greyhounds run, coon hounds chase, beagles bark, border collies herd, terriers will chase rats and tear up toys -- this is in the very fibers of their beings. To curb those instincts takes a lot of hard work and diligence, and you'll never know for sure you've got  it under your control. Please think before getting a pit bull. 

 

That is some cool info on your pup! Good looking dog.

 

This is another reason I don't want to go to the pound for a pit. Most of them are already a year or so old and come from God knows where. I want to train him from a young age as I have young ones in the house. While they are "fighting dogs" they have also been referred to as "nanny dogs" for their loyalty and ability to watch over young. Every pit I come across is docile and lazy. I've had Pitbull mutts in the past, but nothing like this one I have my eyes on. His dad looks like he could kick my ass and steal my girl...

 

 

 

 

[Ja Rhule]

When we got our pup from a breeder, we sign a contract that requires professional training starting within 2 months and we are not allowed to surrender pup to the pound.  If Belgian Malinois does not get training within 8 months of birth, they are going to be uncontrollable.

 

Edited November 17, 2021 by Ja Rhule

[Anybodyhome]

You can have the best of both worlds by rescuing a pure bred. There are plenty of breed specific rescue organizations out there.

17 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

the showring is the cause of most of the rest of the issue. Breeding primarily for cosmetic traits. Letting results in the showring lead to more and more exaggerated characteristics oftentimes to the detriment of the breed. LOTS of old school very good breeders have completely dropped out of showing. The person who literally wrote the book on AKC judging of Rottweilers is completely out of showing now. Won't have anything to do with it.

This. There are books written about how various breeds of dogs looked before the show dog circuit encouraged in-breeding and cosmetic breeding and the AKC doesn't help matters by establishing appearance standards. The respiratory and breathing issues English Bulldogs and American Boxers, for example, endure is in some part due to breeding to achieve a certain aesthetic. Boxers used to have a snout; English bulldogs, as recently as 100 years ago, weren't so flat faced they could hardly breath. 

Any way, to each his own. All of my dogs over the past 30 years have been rescues. We've also fostered many along the way, including this most recent little girl on the left:

She's now with her new school teacher Mom in Charlotte and she's been named Mocha. They guy on the right is Cooper, our 8-month old rescue. He's already 65lbs and we picked up a DNA test yesterday to figure out what he is.

[LinvilleGorge]

4 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

Our show quality Greater Swiss Mountain Dog ran $3k last year for a female. We've picked up four best of breed ribbons and four first place owner/handler ribbons so far this autumn. The dog has excellent conformation and we knew the quality of her parents and breeder before the purchase.

Ours is a rare breed so the gene pool isn't too large, making any genetic problems a real danger. (The breed was thought extinct at the turn of the 1900s but two males and two females were found on a farm in the backwaters of Switzerland about that time and they were able to rebuild the stock). With only about 3600 or so of the breed in the US, it's both easy and darned important to know where their breeding stock came from.

Temperament is an important part of the breed, as it is in any breed. Swissies are farmer's dogs, big, strong (they were bred to pull carts for farmers who couldn't afford draft horses or mules) with a deep, rolling barooooooo bark. The breed dates back to the Roman legionnaire war dogs and are the parent stock of the Bernese and the Rottweiler. Though imposing, they're very friendly and non-aggressive, more of a sentry dog than a guard dog. They have a mild herding instinct and naturally lay across thresholds, probably as a corraling or stalling measure to assist farmers in animal handling. 

And on instinct, before buying a pitbull, if you've never owned one: Please consider what the breed was bred for. Those are fighting dogs, pure and simple. If they are purebred then that is very strong in their bloodlines and if this is a reputable breeder then you can be sure that the parents were well trained. The puppies don't come trained at all, so you will really need to be committed to working on curbing that fight/kill instinct in the dog. This isn't for the casual owner. Before anyone starts on the "pits have a bad, undeserved reputation" you have to realize that breeds breed true and traits were built into them selectively. Greyhounds run, coon hounds chase, beagles bark, border collies herd, terriers will chase rats and tear up toys -- this is in the very fibers of their beings. To curb those instincts takes a lot of hard work and diligence, and you'll never know for sure you've got  it under your control. Please think before getting a pit bull. 

Did you talk to your breeder about hemangiosarcoma? That breed is wildly prone to it and it has a HEAVY genetic tendency.

[LinvilleGorge]

As far as this whole idea of pure breeds being healthier than mutts, I think it's easier to digest if you strip the basic argument away from the emotion of involving dogs.

Here's the basic argument: I think I can create a healthier overall population by severely restricting the gene pool in an effort to make the most homogenous population possible.

Literally every biologist's reaction: