If you could rewind time…Would you have picked Mac Jones? (Article)

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

One thing I have pondered is why QB can't improve arm strength or at least ball velocity. It gets taught routinely in high school and college. If qbs can get stronger as they work out with an NFL regime why wouldn't they be able to improve velocity. Seems a lot of it is technique more than brute strength..

https://www.finchperformance.ca/post/3-ways-to-increase-velocity-when-throwing-the-football

Yeah, but by the time you reach the NFL, you are much closer to being a finished product than in HS or college. Obviously improvements can happen but you are typically within the range of your physical limits by the time you get to the NFL. 

QB's are always tinkering with and improving mechanics over their careers but you don't see big jumps in throwing ability at this level. Most of that is cleaning up bad habits or working out consistency issues.

[ForJimmy]

57 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Well, in fairness, his stats are fairly impressive. His play is less impressive. He definitely fits the system they run there.

They don’t look stellar to me. I mean for a rookie they are solid, but how much further can he develop. His strengths (processing and decision making) are the things that rookie usually struggle with and get better over time. I just don’t think he gets much better than this, but as I stated I am wrong a lot. 

[ForJimmy]

Yeah the guy viewed as the most “pro ready” is having the best rookie year. Imagine that… The question is, where is his ceiling? 

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

They don’t look stellar to me. I mean for a rookie they are solid, but how much further can he develop. His strengths (processing and decision making) are the things that rookie usually struggle with and get better over time. I just don’t think he gets much better than this, but as I stated I am wrong a lot. 

Well, he is on pace for a 4000+ yard season and at a 68+ completion percentage, as well. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially as a rookie.

His TD production is pretty middling but the rest of his throwing stats are fairly solid to impressive. 

 

[ForJimmy]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Well, he is on pace for a 4000+ yard season and at a 68+ completion percentage, as well. That's nothing to sneeze at, especially as a rookie.

His TD production is pretty middling but the rest of his throwing stats are fairly solid to impressive. 

 

Yeah he is 9th in yard between Tannehill and Goff. Teddy could get yards, TDs win games. 

[kungfoodude]

Just now, ForJimmy said:

Yeah he is 9th in yard between Tannehill and Goff. Teddy could get yards, TDs win games. 

Yeah, I'd take Jones over Teddy at the moment but I get your point.

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, but by the time you reach the NFL, you are much closer to being a finished product than in HS or college. Obviously improvements can happen but you are typically within the range of your physical limits by the time you get to the NFL. 

QB's are always tinkering with and improving mechanics over their careers but you don't see big jumps in throwing ability at this level. Most of that is cleaning up bad habits or working out consistency issues.

When I see how guys like Smitty and McCaffrey really bulked up and got a lot stronger in an NFL strength program why don't we see it with QBs. Other than Cam and a few outliers most QBs are not that strong and don't change from college to the pros. If they don't work out to get stronger or faster you would think they would to at least protect from injury which can be at least somewhat mitigated by increased musculature. I guess they don't think there is much you can do to improve or it isn't important.

Edited November 5, 2021 by panthers55

[Varking]

1 hour ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah the guy viewed as the most “pro ready” is having the best rookie year. Imagine that… The question is, where is his ceiling? 

I think we are seeing it unless they get some elite guys at WR.

[Varking]

10 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

When I see how guys like Smitty and McCaffrey really bulked up and got a lot stronger in an NFL strength program why don't we see it with QBs. Other than Cam and a few outliers most QBs are not that strong and don't change from college to the pros. If they don't work out to get stronger or faster you would think they would to at least protect from injury which can be at least somewhat mitigated by increased musculature. I guess they don't think there is much you can do to improve or it isn't important.

It’s the same reasons why you don’t see crazy body changes in baseball most times: mechanics and timing. Getting more muscular can help with swing speed and arm speed but it can also throw off your timing tremendously by just a bit. And at the pro level that hurts more than it helps unless you have a long time between seasons to get reps in. It’s easier to work out to stay where you are right now. 

[kungfoodude]

30 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

When I see how guys like Smitty and McCaffrey really bulked up and got a lot stronger in an NFL strength program why don't we see it with QBs. Other than Cam and a few outliers most QBs are not that strong and don't change from college to the pros. If they don't work out to get stronger or faster you would think they would to at least protect from injury which can be at least somewhat mitigated by increased musculature. I guess they don't think there is much you can do to improve or it isn't important.

You do see some bulking up and some cutting down(Cam and Big Ben come to mind on slimming down). 

Outside of someone like Mac Jones, who was physically about as unimpressive as can be, I would say the majority of QB's are still in pretty good shape. 

Getting bigger and stronger might help for a bruising runner like Allen or Cam but that also isn't a recipe for longevity.  If you think about the muscles being used for throwing a football, it isn't that you necessarily want them big and bulky. Hence why you don't see a bunch of swole up MLB pitchers.

Edited November 5, 2021 by kungfoodude

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, Varking said:

It’s the same reasons why you don’t see crazy body changes in baseball most times: mechanics and timing. Getting more muscular can help with swing speed and arm speed but it can also throw off your timing tremendously by just a bit. And at the pro level that hurts more than it helps unless you have a long time between seasons to get reps in. It’s easier to work out to stay where you are right now. 

That may or may not be true. If you are working on your mechanics at the same time you work on your strength improvement they should stay relatively consistent. Especially if you use exercises that reproduce the types of movements you will be doing such as throwing a ball the change will be so gradual it won't necessarily change your timing. Or at least my daughter the athletic trainer and physical therapist said that was the case and she works with college and some pro athletes.

[Louie]

Out of all the QBs, liked Mac Jones the best. I thought SF was going to draft him. After they took Trey Lance, I thought just maybe we would draft him. I think he would be way better than Sam. I think he will be a better than average QB. Better than Kirk Cousins, but not as good as Derek Carr or Josh Allen.

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

You do see some bulking up and some cutting down(Cam and Big Ben come to mind on slimming down). 

Outside of someone like Mac Jones, who was physically about as unimpressive as can be, I would say the majority of QB's are still in pretty good shape. 

Getting bigger and stronger might help for a bruising runner like Allen or Cam but that also isn't a recipe for longevity.  If you think about the muscles being used for throwing a football, it isn't that you necessarily want them big and bulky. Hence why you don't see a bunch of swole up MLB pitchers.

Agreed. I am told you don't try and bulk up but you actually do strength exercises using bands for instance while replicating your throwing motion so you don't do exactly what you mentioned. Plus it should be a gradual process while still practicing your throwing motion so you gain velocity and strength while still maintaining your flexibility, and keep your mechanics and timing.

[Varking]

38 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

That may or may not be true. If you are working on your mechanics at the same time you work on your strength improvement they should stay relatively consistent. Especially if you use exercises that reproduce the types of movements you will be doing such as throwing a ball the change will be so gradual it won't necessarily change your timing. Or at least my daughter the athletic trainer and physical therapist said that was the case and she works with college and some pro athletes.

I played ball in college as well. When you pitch you don’t want to do any sort of hard lifting and then you need to give your arm rest. This is especially true during the season. That’s why you lift lightly. The only time you can make transformative changes to your muscle structure is the offseason and depending on how quickly that’s going on you don’t also have the time to properly work on mechanics and stretching. 
 

You have to pick and choose your battles with that but that’s why most people who are throwers don’t have these massive body transformations.