If you could rewind time…Would you have picked Mac Jones? (Article)

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

It already has aged well. I didn't say he would be the next Tom Brady or be an All pro. I said he was the most pro ready which he has shown and done well in a good offense.  Both true.  I am interested in seeing how he develops much like I am the other rookies who are starting. But anyone who knows football also knows that injuries and many other factors play as important a role in career success than just raw talent.

Is he the most pro ready or is he in the best situation?

[ForJimmy]

21 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

How would I know. I never claimed to be anything other than a fan. But that doesn't mean I can't be right about things like the fact Mac would be the most pro ready QB and will do well in a good system 

“Some of us actually know what we are talking about.” Then you proceed with this. Not many people questioned if Mac was the most pro ready. He was limited in his ability and needed a strong supporting cast, line and staff to succeed. He would have been crushed behind our line with Joe Brady. He was a low ceiling higher floor like a Cousins which doesn’t warrant a top 10 pick.

Edited November 5, 2021 by ForJimmy

[panthers55]

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Is he the most pro ready or is he in the best situation?

Like both. Do you dislike him because you think he has no talent or because he replaced Cam?

[panthers55]

Just now, ForJimmy said:

“Some of us actually know what we are talking about.” Then you proceed with this. Not many people questioned if Mac was the most pro ready. He was limited in his ability and needed a strong supporting cast, line and staff to succeed. He would have been crushed behind our line with Joe Brady. He was a low ceiling low floor like a Cousins which doesn’t warrant a top 10 pick.

Easy to speculate with hypotheticals. And he isn't limited in ability. The recent trend to only value mobile athletic QBs  and denigrate most traditional pocket passers ignores that the QB with the most SB wins is not very athletic or mobile. And Cousins was a 4th round pick who didn't play much until year 4. Meanwhile Jones was a first rounder who beat out an athletic veteran for the starting job and has played well for a rookie. 

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Like both. Do you dislike him because you think he has no talent or because he replaced Cam?

Lol. What do I care about New England's QB situation other than hoping they lose every game?

I thought he was a talented guy coming into the league but he has a pretty low ceiling. The problem with having below average NFL arm strength is that it literally limits how much of the field you have access to with regularity. So, in a sense, that makes you easier to defend. If he were a very athletic QB, he could make up for some of those losses but he isn't. That was and is my issue with Jones, he has such a low ceiling so it hamstrings some things you can do offensively. 

He is very good at processing the field(by far the best of the rookies). If he had the physical gifts that Lawrence, Fields, Wilson or Lance did, he'd be the easy choice for #1 QB in that class. Literally without any doubt.

[ForJimmy]

Just now, panthers55 said:

Easy to speculate with hypotheticals. And he isn't limited in ability. The recent trend to only value mobile athletic QBs  and denigrate most traditional pocket passers ignores that the QB with the most SB wins is not very athletic or mobile. And Cousins was a 4th round pick who didn't play much until year 4. Meanwhile Jones was a first rounder who beat out an athletic veteran for the starting job and has played well for a rookie. 

Where is that vet he beat out? Oh still a free agent, must have been great…  Cousins in the 4th is my point. QBs that are average in ability don’t belong in the first, especially top 10. You act like he is lighting it up. He stats aren’t that impressive and his has the Patriots with the same record as Darnold has the Panthers…. 

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

Where is that vet he beat out? Oh still a free agent, must have been great…  Cousins in the 4th is my point. QBs that are average in ability don’t belong in the first, especially top 10. You act like he is lighting it up. He stats aren’t that impressive and his has the Patriots with the same record as Darnold has the Panthers…. 

Well, in fairness, his stats are fairly impressive. His play is less impressive. He definitely fits the system they run there.

[panthers55]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

Lol. What do I care about New England's QB situation other than hoping they lose every game?

I thought he was a talented guy coming into the league but he has a pretty low ceiling. The problem with having below average NFL arm strength is that it literally limits how much of the field you have access to with regularity. So, in a sense, that makes you easier to defend. If he were a very athletic QB, he could make up for some of those losses but he isn't. That was and is my issue with Jones, he has such a low ceiling so it hamstrings some things you can do offensively. 

He is very good at processing the field(by far the best of the rookies). If he had the physical gifts that Lawrence, Fields, Wilson or Lance did, he'd be the easy choice for #1 QB in that class. Literally without any doubt.

If arm strength is so important than how does Brady keep winning Super Bowls as his arm strength diminishes or how did Brees keep winning when he clearly couldn't heave it that deep? Arm strength is great to have just like being able to run fast and be elusive. But in the long scheme of what makes a QB great attributes like intelligence, accuracy, the ability to stay healthy having a good supporting cast of players and coaches are more important that a rifle arm. 

[panthers55]

5 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Where is that vet he beat out? Oh still a free agent, must have been great…  Cousins in the 4th is my point. QBs that are average in ability don’t belong in the first, especially top 10. You act like he is lighting it up. He stats aren’t that impressive and his has the Patriots with the same record as Darnold has the Panthers…. 

Clearly this is going in circles and some of us have to work. For what it is worth I hope Mac sucks this week and is awful. Not going to spend all morning going round and round about a player I really don't care about and will be rooting against this Sunday. 

[kungfoodude]

Just now, panthers55 said:

If arm strength is so important than how does Brady keep winning Super Bowls as his arm strength diminishes or how did Brees keep winning when he clearly couldn't heave it that deep? Arm strength is great to have just like being able to run fast and be elusive. But in the long scheme of what makes a QB great attributes like intelligence, accuracy, the ability to stay healthy having a good supporting cast of players and coaches are more important that a rifle arm. 

Brady was not lacking in arm strength. It has diminished over time but he is not a noodle armed QB by any stretch. Brees arm strength was relatively average. It became less so as he got older. He made up for it with insanely elite processing, accuracy, timing, etc. He just simply didn't make many mistakes(until the playoffs where he would gloriously choke like a dog).

Physical attributes matter but only with other very good or elite attributes, as well. I am not discounting that as an idea. But, if you have an elite arm or are an elite athlete at that position, you have the ability to make plays that make even a perfectly executed defense look stupid. Or the ability to rifle a pass or rip of a run that only a handful of guys in the league can accomplish. That stresses a defense 100% of the game.

With the less physically skilled guys, it removes parts of the field or it doesn't require specific attention. With Brees, he had to be nearly perfect to accomplish what he did, especially at the end of his career. But, he largely was. And, like you said, he was also in the perfect offense for him.

[panthers55]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Brady was not lacking in arm strength. It has diminished over time but he is not a noodle armed QB by any stretch. Brees arm strength was relatively average. It became less so as he got older. He made up for it with insanely elite processing, accuracy, timing, etc. He just simply didn't make many mistakes(until the playoffs where he would gloriously choke like a dog).

Physical attributes matter but only with other very good or elite attributes, as well. I am not discounting that as an idea. But, if you have an elite arm or are an elite athlete at that position, you have the ability to make plays that make even a perfectly executed defense look stupid. Or the ability to rifle a pass or rip of a run that only a handful of guys in the league can accomplish. That stresses a defense 100% of the game.

With the less physically skilled guys, it removes parts of the field or it doesn't require specific attention. With Brees, he had to be nearly perfect to accomplish what he did, especially at the end of his career. But, he largely was. And, like you said, he was also in the perfect offense for him.

I agree that of course you want the total.package as would every team but often you have to weigh what is more important. The common mistake is to.look for athletes and believe you can coach accuracy and increase processing speed with training and time. Just like we did with Darnold. He has a strong arm and has shown he is more athletic than many thought. But what has been his problem all of his career is lack of quick processing and poor decisionmaking. So again if you can have it all that is great but if I have to pick and choose, football intelligence, quick processing and the ability to read defenses have consistently shown to be more important to QB success. And something that apparently isn't as easy to teach as many think.

[kungfoodude]

Just now, panthers55 said:

I agree that of course you want the total.package as would every team but often you have to weigh what is more important. The common mistake is to.look for athletes and believe you can coach accuracy and increase processing speed with training and time. Just like we did with Darnold. He has a strong arm and has shown he is more athletic than many thought. But what has been his problem all of his career is lack of quick processing and poor decisionmaking. So again if you can have it all that is great but if I have to pick and choose, football intelligence, quick processing and the ability to read defenses have consistently shown to be more important to QB success. And something that apparently isn't as easy to teach as many think.

Processing can improve over time and most rookies will struggle with "getting up to NFL speed" but when your struggles are so obvious and apparent(which Darnold's were), that typically indicates there isn't anything to be done. High ceiling players typically will get a 2nd or 3rd chance because some GM or coach will believe they can be the one to get all that potential out of them. But that rarely ever happens as a professional player. It's really on the players themselves to become great in the NFL. 

At least if you are above average at processing and reading defenses you can typically have a lengthy backup QB career even lacking much in terms of NFL physical ability. 

But, that was why so many of us were anti-Darnold. I don't care what his physical abilities are, he can't fuging read the goddamn field. All those physical skills aren't worth a fug.

[panthers55]

8 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Processing can improve over time and most rookies will struggle with "getting up to NFL speed" but when your struggles are so obvious and apparent(which Darnold's were), that typically indicates there isn't anything to be done. High ceiling players typically will get a 2nd or 3rd chance because some GM or coach will believe they can be the one to get all that potential out of them. But that rarely ever happens as a professional player. It's really on the players themselves to become great in the NFL. 

At least if you are above average at processing and reading defenses you can typically have a lengthy backup QB career even lacking much in terms of NFL physical ability. 

But, that was why so many of us were anti-Darnold. I don't care what his physical abilities are, he can't fuging read the goddamn field. All those physical skills aren't worth a fug.

One thing I have pondered is why QB can't improve arm strength or at least ball velocity. It gets taught routinely in high school and college. If qbs can get stronger as they work out with an NFL regime why wouldn't they be able to improve velocity. Seems a lot of it is technique more than brute strength..

https://www.finchperformance.ca/post/3-ways-to-increase-velocity-when-throwing-the-football

[Call Me James]

Mac Jones has just been okay. Taking him at 8 would have been a bad use of the draft pick.