Want to see why you never trust PFF grades?

[mwright350]

23 minutes ago, rayzor said:

Seriously what metrics are they using for OL?

There's a (predictably vague) explanation of how they grade OL / DL here if you're of a mind to try to reconcile their words with the ridiculous results.  If not...they are looking at how well the player executes their (guessed) assignment and applying + or - marks in .5 increments until they reach a threshold (+-2 for run game stuff, I think 1.5 for pass rush / block?  I forgot already tbh, maybe also 2).  Gap integrity, how long the block held (or took to shed), ground given, etc.  Add them up, normalize according to their formula, and voila.  There's a little more to how they explain it but it's purely subjective. 

I did find it a little amusing that a site claiming to be about numbers and grading will throw out a line like "if we can't say with 95% certainty we know what the player was supposed to do..." and inject that made up threshold that they can't possibly actually enforce into an explanation of how they grade players though. (How exactly do they know what Paradis was supposed to do when he's horizontal moving backwards?)

After actually trying, again, to learn something about their insanity...PFF is the grading equivalent of "well he was good except for those really bad plays that blew up the entire game...those count the same as everything else so overall good job little buddy".   

[Ricky Spanish]

OK, so this is straight trash. just watching the highlights from the game, not even the full game, Paradis, John Miller (thankfully not on this list) and Dennis Daley all flash as god awful on multiple plays:

(0:02) First Play where Sam is sacked, Paradis gets baptized and Sam goes down. 100% on Paradis.

(2:20) Miller whiffs on his block but is picked up by the RB. Protection didn't slide to pick up the free blitzer from the left side. Not sure if that is on Sam or the center for not calling it out.

(3:07) Miller again whiffs on a block, Sam is able to avoid the rush. Hit by the guy Paradis was blocking but that wasn't on Paradis, solid blocking on that play.

(4:38) Not our line but watch their LG #52 completely and BLATANTLY HOLD Fox on the Dak scramble for a first on 4th and 2. This was the same drive where Schultz fumbled but Boger was a fuging idiot and called the play unreviewable. That one just pisses me off so much, unrelated to this thread, just thought you guys should know.

(6:06) Miller, again, whiffs his block and Sam Scrambles for a 1st down. Paradis also falls down for some reason but he wasn't doing much on this play to begin with.

(6:20) Daley whiffs his block but it's inconsequential because Hubbard bounces outside for a solid gain (Great blocks by Tremble and Erving on this play actually).

(6:37) Erving whiff, Sam scrambles to make a completion

(7:30) Erving falls and gets Sam Sacked. Gregory slipped between both him and Daley. Erving at Fault but Daley didn't even attempt to engage him when he slid by (He was no longer engaged with his man at this point.)

(8:20) Coverage sack. No offensive linemen to blame. 

(8:38) Daley fails to pick up the stunt allowing a free rusher right at the QB. Sam gets it out to Moore quickly for a completion.

(8:54) RB PANCAKES Parsons while Paradis pushes his block directly into Sam while he throws. Erving ends up on his ass again and Daley maaaaaaaaaay have gotten away with a hold

(11:34) Offensive line fails to get any push and we fail on 3rd and 1

(11:51) Pretty Clean Pocket that Darnold is able to climb. Throws a pick though. Bad Darnold.

(13:37) Parsons Sack, RB Cut him but he still got to Sam. Rest of line did their job. More rushers than O-Lineman.

(14:20) Line holds up well enough. Paradis gets pushed back more than I would like but Sam stay's upright. 

(14:33) 97 get's a fantastic jump on the snap and makes Erving's life hard. Doesn't help that Daley gets bullrushed and pushed back onto his heels making Sam roll out of the pocket. End result is a TD. Task failed successfully.  

Summary:

• Everyone not named Moton looked bad one play or another in the highlights. 
• Rodney Smith is a legit pass blocking RB. Numerous plays he was in, he was throwing great blocks and keeping Sam safe. Very impressed with him.
• Erving can't stay on his feet.
• Paradis wasn't as bad as I thought but not great by any stretch of the imagination.
• Sliding protections were off throughout the game.
• Miller looked like the worst one out there. 
• Sam is an elusive SOB. His pocket awareness was actually pretty decent and he was able to navigate it well. Came away very impressed with how he was playing under pressure throughout the game. Pleasantly surprised. 

[AU-panther]

36 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

OK, so this is straight trash. just watching the highlights from the game, not even the full game, Paradis, John Miller (thankfully not on this list) and Dennis Daley all flash as god awful on multiple plays:

(0:02) First Play where Sam is sacked, Paradis gets baptized and Sam goes down. 100% on Paradis.

(2:20) Miller whiffs on his block but is picked up by the RB. Protection didn't slide to pick up the free blitzer from the left side. Not sure if that is on Sam or the center for not calling it out.

(3:07) Miller again whiffs on a block, Sam is able to avoid the rush. Hit by the guy Paradis was blocking but that wasn't on Paradis, solid blocking on that play.

(4:38) Not our line but watch their LG #52 completely and BLATANTLY HOLD Fox on the Dak scramble for a first on 4th and 2. This was the same drive where Schultz fumbled but Boger was a fuging idiot and called the play unreviewable. That one just pisses me off so much, unrelated to this thread, just thought you guys should know.

(6:06) Miller, again, whiffs his block and Sam Scrambles for a 1st down. Paradis also falls down for some reason but he wasn't doing much on this play to begin with.

(6:20) Daley whiffs his block but it's inconsequential because Hubbard bounces outside for a solid gain (Great blocks by Tremble and Erving on this play actually).

(6:37) Erving whiff, Sam scrambles to make a completion

(7:30) Erving falls and gets Sam Sacked. Gregory slipped between both him and Daley. Erving at Fault but Daley didn't even attempt to engage him when he slid by (He was no longer engaged with his man at this point.)

(8:20) Coverage sack. No offensive linemen to blame. 

(8:38) Daley fails to pick up the stunt allowing a free rusher right at the QB. Sam gets it out to Moore quickly for a completion.

(8:54) RB PANCAKES Parsons while Paradis pushes his block directly into Sam while he throws. Erving ends up on his ass again and Daley maaaaaaaaaay have gotten away with a hold

(11:34) Offensive line fails to get any push and we fail on 3rd and 1

(11:51) Pretty Clean Pocket that Darnold is able to climb. Throws a pick though. Bad Darnold.

(13:37) Parsons Sack, RB Cut him but he still got to Sam. Rest of line did their job. More rushers than O-Lineman.

(14:20) Line holds up well enough. Paradis gets pushed back more than I would like but Sam stay's upright. 

(14:33) 97 get's a fantastic jump on the snap and makes Erving's life hard. Doesn't help that Daley gets bullrushed and pushed back onto his heels making Sam roll out of the pocket. End result is a TD. Task failed successfully.  

Summary:

• Everyone not named Moton looked bad one play or another in the highlights. 
• Rodney Smith is a legit pass blocking RB. Numerous plays he was in, he was throwing great blocks and keeping Sam safe. Very impressed with him.
• Erving can't stay on his feet.
• Paradis wasn't as bad as I thought but not great by any stretch of the imagination.
• Sliding protections were off throughout the game.
• Miller looked like the worst one out there. 
• Sam is an elusive SOB. His pocket awareness was actually pretty decent and he was able to navigate it well. Came away very impressed with how he was playing under pressure throughout the game. Pleasantly surprised. 

Thank you, easily the best post of the thread.  So while everyone is making fun of PFF, you actually took time to watch the players in question, and like you said Paradis wasn't as bad as everyone is making out.

I actually took time to watch every one of his snaps and to be honest his PFF score isn't that crazy. 

PFF actually had his pass rush grade a good bit lower, which is expected because he gave up a sack and I think 2 pressures, which was actually a lot better than several other guys on the line.  HIs rush grade was actually pretty good and was the reason his overall grade was better than people expected.

To me, Ervin and Miller seemed to struggle the most on the line that day and actually that is reflected in the PFF article I posted earlier.

 

[Ricky Spanish]

2 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Thank you, easily the best post of the thread.  So while everyone is making fun of PFF, you actually took time to watch the players in question, and like you said Paradis wasn't as bad as everyone is making out.

I actually took time to watch every one of his snaps and to be honest his PFF score isn't that crazy. 

PFF actually had his pass rush grade a good bit lower, which is expected because he gave up a sack and I think 2 pressures, which was actually a lot better than several other guys on the line.  HIs rush grade was actually pretty good and was the reason his overall grade was better than people expected.

To me, Ervin and Miller seemed to struggle the most on the line that day and actually that is reflected in the PFF article I posted earlier.

 

Paradis run blocking in those clips was actually legit. On one of the longer Chuba runs he blocked a dude, came off the block, then blocked another dude. 

Daley's Run blocking may have been better too, but both left something to be desired in pass blocking. 

Erving and Miller were by far the weakest links on the line though. Christensen needs to get some playing time, at either position. 

[AU-panther]

5 minutes ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Paradis run blocking in those clips was actually legit. On one of the longer Chuba runs he blocked a dude, came off the block, then blocked another dude. 

Daley's Run blocking may have been better too, but both left something to be desired in pass blocking. 

Erving and Miller were by far the weakest links on the line though. Christensen needs to get some playing time, at either position. 

I don't think he had a single bad rush snap.  Everyone is expecting some Larry Allen type of highlight where he pushes his guy back 4 yards but that isn't reality of how most line plays work.  He was really never the reason a run play didn't work, and like you said he had a couple of + plays.

As far as the pass blocking goes he had the sack, which looked horrible, and I think two other pressures, most of his other snaps were fine. Also he had no penalties.   PFF graded him below average, seems fair.  

 

 

[glenwo2]

9 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I don't know how their grading system works but they're so high on it that they refuse to adapt it for when it gives them a clearly flawed result. Hell, they might be crediting him for a plus play on the plays where he's in good position but gets forklifted into Darnold's lap because from a technical perspective he did do his job. He was just physically incapable of carrying out the task. Which is one helluva flawed grading system if that's how they're rationalizing his grade.

I think this is may be EXACTLY how they're grading this.

I believe we should stop posting anything from PFF here going forward.

[Thorrez]

4 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

OK, so this is straight trash. just watching the highlights from the game, not even the full game, Paradis, John Miller (thankfully not on this list) and Dennis Daley all flash as god awful on multiple plays:

(0:02) First Play where Sam is sacked, Paradis gets baptized and Sam goes down. 100% on Paradis.

(2:20) Miller whiffs on his block but is picked up by the RB. Protection didn't slide to pick up the free blitzer from the left side. Not sure if that is on Sam or the center for not calling it out.

(3:07) Miller again whiffs on a block, Sam is able to avoid the rush. Hit by the guy Paradis was blocking but that wasn't on Paradis, solid blocking on that play.

(4:38) Not our line but watch their LG #52 completely and BLATANTLY HOLD Fox on the Dak scramble for a first on 4th and 2. This was the same drive where Schultz fumbled but Boger was a fuging idiot and called the play unreviewable. That one just pisses me off so much, unrelated to this thread, just thought you guys should know.

(6:06) Miller, again, whiffs his block and Sam Scrambles for a 1st down. Paradis also falls down for some reason but he wasn't doing much on this play to begin with.

(6:20) Daley whiffs his block but it's inconsequential because Hubbard bounces outside for a solid gain (Great blocks by Tremble and Erving on this play actually).

(6:37) Erving whiff, Sam scrambles to make a completion

(7:30) Erving falls and gets Sam Sacked. Gregory slipped between both him and Daley. Erving at Fault but Daley didn't even attempt to engage him when he slid by (He was no longer engaged with his man at this point.)

(8:20) Coverage sack. No offensive linemen to blame. 

(8:38) Daley fails to pick up the stunt allowing a free rusher right at the QB. Sam gets it out to Moore quickly for a completion.

(8:54) RB PANCAKES Parsons while Paradis pushes his block directly into Sam while he throws. Erving ends up on his ass again and Daley maaaaaaaaaay have gotten away with a hold

(11:34) Offensive line fails to get any push and we fail on 3rd and 1

(11:51) Pretty Clean Pocket that Darnold is able to climb. Throws a pick though. Bad Darnold.

(13:37) Parsons Sack, RB Cut him but he still got to Sam. Rest of line did their job. More rushers than O-Lineman.

(14:20) Line holds up well enough. Paradis gets pushed back more than I would like but Sam stay's upright. 

(14:33) 97 get's a fantastic jump on the snap and makes Erving's life hard. Doesn't help that Daley gets bullrushed and pushed back onto his heels making Sam roll out of the pocket. End result is a TD. Task failed successfully.  

Summary:

• Everyone not named Moton looked bad one play or another in the highlights. 
• Rodney Smith is a legit pass blocking RB. Numerous plays he was in, he was throwing great blocks and keeping Sam safe. Very impressed with him.
• Erving can't stay on his feet.
• Paradis wasn't as bad as I thought but not great by any stretch of the imagination.
• Sliding protections were off throughout the game.
• Miller looked like the worst one out there. 
• Sam is an elusive SOB. His pocket awareness was actually pretty decent and he was able to navigate it well. Came away very impressed with how he was playing under pressure throughout the game. Pleasantly surprised. 

Awesome post. You should break it out and start a new thread with it, it deserves more attention than being buried here.

So the simple explanation is that Paradise was OK as a run blocker and the cowboys had found even bigger weaknesses that they attacked on passing plays so he wasn't exposed. Make sense.

[Eazy-E]

Nothing was funnier than when they poo on Luke Kuechly all year only for him to go on and win DPOY that season.