How much of our run blocking woes are on coaching and scheme?

[SBBlue]

14 minutes ago, frankw said:

The thread is about run blocking. If you wanted to compare all phases why not just say so? That was the same year McCaffrey put up 1k/1k. Pass blocking has been an issue going back years Cam Newton had to work around that and he made some truly awful linemen look partially serviceable . Good quarterbacks can make that happen for you but unfortunately Kyle Allen was not that for us despite the win streak. Right now Sam Darnold is doing that for us but it will only continue to work for so long if the run game can't get going. Even with CMC in we wasted several good drives along the way Sam himself acknowledged we've left points on the board. This line will make or break our season you can move the goal posts all you want but reality is reality.

No one is moving goal posts frankw.

Why the drop if ybc from 19 to 20 with many of the same players? 

The ybc we are experiencing is the ybc Brady and Meyer produced in their previous positions.

Edited October 2, 2021 by SBBlue

[SBBlue]

Just now, Scott12345 said:

i know our entire left side was not here...was miller & paradis on the team in 2019?

and what was our 2019 record?

Yeah its in the OP.  Paradis was starting center in  19.  LT was Daley and LIttle (Daley is our current LG btw).  RT was Moton.   Turner and Van Roten were the guards with an injured Williams moving in and out of the lineup.

We were awesome at run blocking and horrible at pass blocking in 19 and then all of sudden it flipped to be top 10 in pass blocking and horrible at run blocking in 20, with many of the same players.   Erving and Eiflen weren't here in 20, the decline predates them.

The ybc we are seeing is the same Brady had with the  2018 saints and  Meyer had with the  2019 chargers.

[frankw]

7 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

No one is moving goal posts frank2.

Why the drop if ybc from 19 to 20 with many of the same players? 

he ybc we are experiencing is the ybc Brady and Meyer produced in their previous positions.

Christian McCaffrey missed the majority of the season. He has made a living making something out of nothing. Mike Davis may not be anything special but he did a decent job getting us some tough yards last year. As far as this season I'm going to chalk some of that up to playcalling. The middle of our line is swiss cheese let's just be honest. But I have seen playcall after playcall for a run up the middle and even McCaffrey struggle to even get past the line of scrimmage. Some of our run game struggles this year is on both execution and putting our players in better positions. Short yardage situations have been brutal.  Guys like CMC and Chuba do better out in space. I think Hubbard can be the back we need against Dallas but we have to use him right and also involve Royce and let him do what he does best.

[SBBlue]

1 minute ago, frankw said:

Christian McCaffrey missed the majority of the season. He has made a living making something out of nothing. Mike Davis may not be anything special but he did a decent job getting us some tough yards last year. As far as this season I'm going to chalk some of that up to playcalling. The middle of our line is swiss cheese let's just be honest. But I have seen playcall after playcall for a run up the middle and even McCaffrey struggle to even get past the line of scrimmage. Some of our run game struggles this year is on both execution and putting our players in better positions. Short yardage situations have been brutal.  Guys like CMC and Chuba do better out in space. I think Hubbard can be the back we need against Dallas but we have to use him right and also involve Royce and let him do what he does best.

I agree CMC makes something out of nothing.

That doesn't explain this year's numbers.  We've been bottom of the pile every week in ybc, even with CMC.

[ForJimmy]

1 hour ago, SBBlue said:

We greatly improved in pass blocking from 2019 to 2020, going from 22nd in pressure% to 10th.  

There is a lot of player overlap.

I'm  really beginning to think its scheme.

The pass blocking looks better because of the quick passes. Joe Brady vs Norv’s run run pass offense. I agree with that being scheme. Losing Trai Turner has to hurt the running game some. It only takes 1 to 2 changes on the line to change the whole dynamics. In our staff’s defense I don’t think they think this offensive line is anywhere near complete. Their strategy was fix the defense with young athletic  players first that should keep us in games. We were competitive in most of our games in year 1. Next is finding the QB (Teddy didn’t work, but Darnold is showing promise) while drafting young weapons to grow with the offense. If Darnold is the guy I think locking up a solid offensive line would be the final step in year 3 (usually Rhule’s final stage of his rebuild). If they hit on Christensen or Brown then that’s just a nice bonus!

[KillerKat]

I think a lot has to do with how sh!t Paradis is. As a terrible center, he throws everything off. He misses a block or gets run over, one of the guards has to cover for him and then in turn the tackle has to cover for the guard and it throws everything off. Get a better center and you could see better results.

[TheBigKat]

When's the last time this team invested a FIRST round pick on O-line. That'll tell you all you need on the state of disarray it's in

[frankw]

22 minutes ago, TheBigKat said:

When's the last time this team invested a FIRST round pick on O-line. That'll tell you all you need on the state of disarray it's in

Only three in 25 years the last being Jeff Otah in 2008.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Carolina_Panthers_first-round_draft_picks

[AU-panther]

6 hours ago, SBBlue said:

In  2019 the Panthers had   a YBC/Att of  3.1  and was 3rd best in the league.
In  2020 the Panthers had   a YBC/Att of  2.1  and was 26th in the league.
In  2021  the Panthers have a YBC/Att of  1.7  and are 31st in the league.

Why the sudden decline? The 2019 Line was injury riddled with  a lot of Little/Daley at LT, Moton at RT, Paradis at C, Turner and Van Roten at G, and Williams going in and out.  We had a  league worst  58 sacks  in 2019 and went through 3 QBs.

Maybe its because it hasn't been strength of our coaches:
In  2018  the Saints had a     YBC/Att of  2.0  and was 30th in the league.
In  2019 the Chargers had a YBC/Att of  1.9  and was 26th in the league. 

Joe brady was not an OC at LSU, he was a passing game coordinator and wide receivers coach.  He was at the Saints in 2018, a year the Saints were horrible at YBC/Att.  Line Coach Pat Meyer did not do well with run blocking either his last year with the Chargers.

I'm not saying our linemen are exempt from the blame here, but our current performance are in line with both coaches past history.  The 2019 line has a lot of overlap with this year's line and was nothing spectacular.

We often say that we scheme around the line in pass pro, why aren't we doing the same in run blocking, like we did in 2019?  I think its not a strength of our coaches.
 

2019 NFL Advanced Stats | Pro-Football-Reference.com



 

Nice post.  Its a very valid question.  Play calling and play design both factor in, hard to say how much.

 

[nosuchthingasapanther]

 

23 minutes ago, frankw said:

Only three in 25 years the last being Jeff Otah in 2008.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Carolina_Panthers_first-round_draft_picks

in the same time frame...the falcons have drafted 3, the bucs 4, and the saints 6.

[Scott12345]

2 hours ago, SBBlue said:

Yeah its in the OP.  Paradis was starting center in  19.  LT was Daley and LIttle (Daley is our current LG btw).  RT was Moton.   Turner and Van Roten were the guards with an injured Williams moving in and out of the lineup.

We were awesome at run blocking and horrible at pass blocking in 19 and then all of sudden it flipped to be top 10 in pass blocking and horrible at run blocking in 20, with many of the same players.   Erving and Eiflen weren't here in 20, the decline predates them.

The ybc we are seeing is the same Brady had with the  2018 saints and  Meyer had with the  2019 chargers.

Turner was an all pro that year wasn’t he?

im still not blaming our poor blocking on our coaches…all on our players

[SBBlue]

 The Jets used  a first round pick from last year and a first round pick this year and literally have the highest pressure % in the league. 

The Rams, arguably the best line in football, have the lowest pressure %, with the 4th most pocket time.  They have no first round linemen and haven't drafted any in recent memory.  They drafted their line in the 2nd, 4th and 5th.  They added  a 2nd rounder in free agency  and traded a 5th with Cleveland for a 2nd rounder.

 

[SBBlue]

1 minute ago, Scott12345 said:

Turner was an all pro that year wasn’t he?

im still not blaming our poor blocking on our coaches…all on our players

No he wasn't all pro.   He gave up 6 sacks in 13 games and was named a reserve at the 2019 probowl.

I'm not trying to blame anybody.  The flip between pass pro and run blocking success/failure was stark with 80% of the same linemen.  We are seeing the same results Brady and Meyer had at their previous positions.

The huddle is funny.  When the line does respectable in something, we say its the scheme or Darnold helping them out.  When the line does poorly, its on them.  

[frankw]

1 hour ago, nosuchthingasapanther said:

 

in the same time frame...the falcons have drafted 3, the bucs 4, and the saints 6.

First round obviously isn't the only way to invest other teams have had success in identifying oline talent in other rounds but Carolina can't really say the same at least not in the last several years. Who are the best that stick out? Turner and Moton? Maybe Daryl Williams for a time? In ten years that's it? Oof. Fitterer and Rhule are the right pair to change that hopefully.