Jaycee Horn

[NAS]

53 minutes ago, Varking said:

PFF had Horn as our fifth worst defender yesterday:

 

Interesting because they raved about him in game summary.  But isn’t it interesting they targeted him only 4 times the entire game? 
 

PFF also had CMC as a 69 grade if I am not mistaken despite his dominant performance.  I would take it with a grain of salt 

[Varking]

2 minutes ago, NAS said:

Interesting because they raved about him in game summary.  But isn’t it interesting they targeted him only 4 times the entire game? 
 

PFF also had CMC as a 69 grade if I am not mistaken despite his dominant performance.  I would take it with a grain of salt 

I believe 69 is actually a solid score according to PFF. I would guess outside of one solid play they penalized CMC for plays he was in on where he didn't get the ball? Maybe missed blocks? Without them telling us its hard to figure out but they supposedly grade every player on a per play basis no matter if they are in the action or not. Its not perfect. 

[cardiackat88.]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:43 AM, ForJimmy said:

He was ok. They seemed to be targeting him towards the end. I definitely don’t want to overpay for him. If Horn becomes our number 1, we really just need a solid vet at the 2. I could be DJax, but not for a premium…

I had said this before in a different thread, but;

I have the feeling Djax will be in a similar situation as Curtis Samuel. A solid player but just not the guy to continue forward with. A "B" student who is in a contract year.

Unlike Samuel, I am betting that Fitty gets something for Djax, maybe a trade before the deadline or franchise tag and trade. SOMEthing....not keep him, but not just let him walk like Samuel.

[mav1234]

6 hours ago, Varking said:

PFF had Horn as our fifth worst defender yesterday:

 

They also appear to have rated Ian Thomas above CMC, so uh, maybe they put an intern on play grading for our game

[mav1234]

6 hours ago, Varking said:

I believe 69 is actually a solid score according to PFF. I would guess outside of one solid play they penalized CMC for plays he was in on where he didn't get the ball? Maybe missed blocks? Without them telling us its hard to figure out but they supposedly grade every player on a per play basis no matter if they are in the action or not. Its not perfect. 

I thought 70 was average starter level?  I may be wrong.

I dunno man, I don't see how you can watch that game and come away thinking CMC was anything less than very good, if not elite.  He had some nice blocks, great runs, good catches... 

Likewise, I think Horn is better than his grade...

Edited September 14, 2021 by mav1234

[Clicheking]

The pass placement was not perfect, idk why everyone keeps saying that. Jaycee's timing was just a hair off. Not complaining, I still think he's gonna be great

[DaveThePanther2008]

15 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

Chris Gamble. Quiet guy who just shut down half the field on every passing play.

Probably one of the most underrated players ever on this team.  He was a first rounder but wasn't a highlight reel but solid part of our defense.

Retired way to early. 

[AU-panther]

13 hours ago, NAS said:

Interesting because they raved about him in game summary.  But isn’t it interesting they targeted him only 4 times the entire game? 
 

PFF also had CMC as a 69 grade if I am not mistaken despite his dominant performance.  I would take it with a grain of salt 

 

13 hours ago, Varking said:

I believe 69 is actually a solid score according to PFF. I would guess outside of one solid play they penalized CMC for plays he was in on where he didn't get the ball? Maybe missed blocks? Without them telling us its hard to figure out but they supposedly grade every player on a per play basis no matter if they are in the action or not. Its not perfect. 

 

7 hours ago, mav1234 said:

They also appear to have rated Ian Thomas above CMC, so uh, maybe they put an intern on play grading for our game

Everyone seems confused about Ian over CMC in grade.

PFF doesn't strictly grade production.  Its basically the ratio of bad, average, and good plays.  Wide open dump offs to CMC aren't really going to help CMCs grade much.  His production might look good on the stat sheet but not his PFF grade.  Those are plays that any RB can make, that is more of a product of usage than ability.  Now if he makes a great catch on a poorly thrown ball that will be more of a positive grade or if he makes a defender miss after he catches the pass.

Also less snaps can actually make a good grade easier.

If Ian Thomas plays 10 snaps, does an average job on 8 of them and has 2 really good snaps he might end up with a better grade than someone who plays 50 snaps.

Nobody is saying Ian is the better player than CMC.

 

 

 

[mav1234]

3 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Nobody is saying Ian is the better player than CMC.

I do appreciate that PFF is not grading player quality explicitly.  But if the grades do not at all reflect the players outcome on the game, are they valuable on a single game basis at all?  If relative grades between players do not reflect the contribution differences between those players, what exactly is their value?

As an approximate aggregate over a season, sure, they provide some insight as one quantitative assessment of a player.  But given the limited sample size of a single game, and the qualitative basis on which they are derived, they just don't see like something worth paying much attention to in isolation.

[AU-panther]

2 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

I do appreciate that PFF is not grading player quality explicitly.  But if the grades do not at all reflect the players outcome on the game, are they valuable on a single game basis at all?  If relative grades between players do not reflect the contribution differences between those players, what exactly is their value?

As an approximate aggregate over a season, sure, they provide some insight as one quantitative assessment of a player.  But given the limited sample size of a single game, and the qualitative basis on which they are derived, they just don't see like something worth paying much attention to in isolation.

Contribution or production is often a product of usage and the players around you, PFF tries to remove some of that.   The value of their grades are nothing more than trying to compare players in how they performed for the snaps they did get.

For example, RB A gets 100 yards on 25 carries.

A lot of RBs would get 100 yards on 25 carries, that can be a product of usage, not necessarily ability.

Maybe RB A  had a good O-line and honestly most of those carries weren't really that impressive.  Most of those runs were ones where you could objectively say most any other RB would have done just as well.  His grade probably won't be that impressive

Whereas RB B gets 40 yards on 10 carries, but his O-line was terrible.  Most of his yards were after contact and he broke a lot of tackles.  He will probably get a pretty good grade.

Traditional stat based evaluation RB A looks better, had more production, but is he the better RB?

With a small sample size can these grades be very misleading? Of course.  That is why I wouldn't get too worked up over this first game, even among the players that played a lot of snaps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mav1234]

1 hour ago, AU-panther said:

With a small sample size can these grades be very misleading? Of course.  That is why I wouldn't get too worked up over this first game, even among the players that played a lot of snaps.

That's fair. It's just odd because I saw multiple plays from CMC that seemed quite good, and he was constantly being lauded by announcers... And fans of opposing teams.  But as you say, not worth getting worked up over a single games grades.  We don't even know exactly why his grade was that so perhaps we missed some critical errors.

[OldhamA]

10 hours ago, cardiackat88. said:

I had said this before in a different thread, but;

I have the feeling Djax will be in a similar situation as Curtis Samuel. A solid player but just not the guy to continue forward with. A "B" student who is in a contract year.

Unlike Samuel, I am betting that Fitty gets something for Djax, maybe a trade before the deadline or franchise tag and trade. SOMEthing....not keep him, but not just let him walk like Samuel.

You need as many good CBs as you can get your hands on. They'd be cray not to offer him a new deal.

[OldhamA]

2 hours ago, AU-panther said:

 

 

Everyone seems confused about Ian over CMC in grade.

PFF doesn't strictly grade production.  Its basically the ratio of bad, average, and good plays.  Wide open dump offs to CMC aren't really going to help CMCs grade much.  His production might look good on the stat sheet but not his PFF grade.  Those are plays that any RB can make, that is more of a product of usage than ability.  Now if he makes a great catch on a poorly thrown ball that will be more of a positive grade or if he makes a defender miss after he catches the pass.

Also less snaps can actually make a good grade easier.

If Ian Thomas plays 10 snaps, does an average job on 8 of them and has 2 really good snaps he might end up with a better grade than someone who plays 50 snaps.

Nobody is saying Ian is the better player than CMC.

Did Mosley get a negative grade then, cos McCaffrey broke his ankles on a few of those dump offs. 

[AU-panther]

2 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

Did Mosley get a negative grade then, cos McCaffrey broke his ankles on a few of those dump offs. 

go look it up

on a side note you just gave a perfect example of what is wrong with most fan evaluation.  Fans form their opinion off of a handful of splash plays, could be bad plays or great plays.  Also chances are that will probably be the only time you will see Mosely all year, so how exactly can you decide how good Thompson is if you don't know how all of the other LBs in the league played for the rest of the year.