Honeymoon period

[OldhamA]

27 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

This is BIG concern I have as well. Same with the obsession with RAS, wanting linemen that are above all versatile, etc. Those are all things you do in college that don't always transfer to the NFL. If you haven't been successful in multiple NFL stops(Erving/Elflein), the problem is probably the player. If you have a history of being injured(Perryman), that isn't likely to change. If you are an elite college athlete that didn't produce in college(Heyward-Bey), that typically doesn't bode well for NFL production. 

These are areas that I will admit concern me a lot about Rhule. What I hope happens is that the failures in these areas are quickly filed away as experience and he learns from these cases as we make mistakes.

I do think a big failing initially was not having someone in the organization with a lot of NFL coaching experience to help him out.

Personally I really love the RAS focus in the Draft. Especially with the priority picks - 1-4th round. Taking the guy with elite traits who's produced in College makes a lot of sense to me. I'd love 5 OL as athletic as Christensen, for example - you could do wonders with that. 

Take athletes (who aren't JUST athletes) and coach them up - that's why you have a Coaching staff. The emphasis on teaching is a big plus for me - but I'm higher on Rhule than most. 

I'm ok with taking fliers on productive College players after the 5th round, but I'd still weight it towards those with RAS scores. At the end of the day there's an athletic floor to the NFL that you have to reach to be able to play here. 

[NAS]

2 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

Personally I really love the RAS focus in the Draft. Especially with the priority picks - 1-4th round. Taking the guy with elite traits who's produced in College makes a lot of sense to me. I'd love 5 OL as athletic as Christensen, for example - you could do wonders with that. 

Take athletes (who aren't JUST athletes) and coach them up - that's why you have a Coaching staff. The emphasis on teaching is a big plus for me - but I'm higher on Rhule than most. 

I'm ok with taking fliers on productive College players after the 5th round, but I'd still weight it towards those with RAS scores. At the end of the day there's an athletic floor to the NFL that you have to reach to be able to play here. 

I'm ok with RAS in rounds 3 - 7. 

First and second rounder need to be specialists for their position that can start Day 1.

[kungfoodude]

16 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

Personally I really love the RAS focus in the Draft. Especially with the priority picks - 1-4th round. Taking the guy with elite traits who's produced in College makes a lot of sense to me. I'd love 5 OL as athletic as Christensen, for example - you could do wonders with that. 

Take athletes (who aren't JUST athletes) and coach them up - that's why you have a Coaching staff. The emphasis on teaching is a big plus for me - but I'm higher on Rhule than most. 

I'm ok with taking fliers on productive College players after the 5th round, but I'd still weight it towards those with RAS scores. At the end of the day there's an athletic floor to the NFL that you have to reach to be able to play here. 

I am not anti-RAS, nor anti-elite athlete but the skills need to be there to back that athleticism up. After all, unlike college, almost everyone in the NFL is an top athlete. That's really my rub. The idea that you can just take raw material and mold it into whatever you like. That doesn't often work in the NFL. If you already aren't pretty proficient at your craft by the time you get out of college, the odds are that learning curve may be too steep in the NFL. 

That's really what my concern about that specifically is, that they lean too heavily on their ability to make something out of nothing. 

[Sir Big Spurr]

18 hours ago, OldhamA said:

I mean most of our fans are morons. They stuck by a flailing franchise for a decade because Rivera seemed a decent bloke.

Rhule is a significantly better HC - it's clear to see already.

The honeymoon period was over for the Cult of Cam guys on 24 March 2020 - Rhule is never going to win those guys over.

“Cult of Cam” is the most accurate thing I’ve read on here. There’s Panthers fans and then there’s Cam fans. 

[CRA]

5 minutes ago, Sir Big Spurr said:

“Cult of Cam” is the most accurate thing I’ve read on here. There’s Panthers fans and then there’s Cam fans. 

That is what happens when you have a legit superstar.   Cam is the only one Carolina has actually seen.  

 

 

[kungfoodude]

14 minutes ago, Sir Big Spurr said:

“Cult of Cam” is the most accurate thing I’ve read on here. There’s Panthers fans and then there’s Cam fans. 

Says the guy that is only here for former Cocks.

[Sir Big Spurr]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Says the guy that is only here for former Cocks.

Huh? Do you think I just became a Panthers fan this year?

[Khyber53]

14 hours ago, Luciu5 said:

For you to be disappointed with 5-11, you would have to have expected better than 5-11.  There's your problem.

Personally, I saw 3 wins, maybe 2.  The roster was completely tore down, rightfully so.  How your expectations were so high is beyond me.  By all accounts, this team over performed last year...

There's much more nuance to the disappointment than just the record. To post another losing season in a row will be devastating. Let's see how the season plays out, I'm personally hoping for a winning year. 

[SOJA]

I mean if Darnold doesn't pan out and Fields does the writing is on the wall for Rhule

[mav1234]

Several other qb needy teams passed on Fields, too.  I'm not saying that makes it a good decision, but we weren't picking 4th or something with him drafted 5th.  I personally loved him, but I think it's clear there were a lot of concerns about him some of us don't understand or know.

Rhule struck me as someone able to get the guys to play well above their abilities last year quite often.  If he can do that again I think it's a real indication of his strength as a coach.

QB is a concern but I think they've already made it clear they don't mind scuttling a multi year contract if one year isn't great.  And Teddy wasnt atrocious last year, just mediocre... That wasn't good enough and is a promising sign for what the coaches want out of a QB.

[kungfoodude]

32 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

There's much more nuance to the disappointment than just the record. To post another losing season in a row will be devastating. Let's see how the season plays out, I'm personally hoping for a winning year. 

I disagree. This is ignoring how much of this team was deconstructed after 2019. We are like an expansion franchise, without the benefit of an expansion draft. Last season was a surprise. For us to be as competitive as we were with so little was a step in the right direction. 

If we finish in the 6-8 win range(still with a losing record as an example) but continue to show we are improved as a team overall, I don't think that is going to be devastating. If we finished with a winning record, that would be a dramatic improvement and WAY ahead of schedule.

That's the one thing that the Sunshine Squad and the Debbie Downers seem to be missing, this was always likely to be a long haul, whether successful or not. You don't jettison every ounce of veteran experience and talent and then attempt to build from the literal ground up and it just happen overnight. You want a "best case" of something similar, but probably not nearly as dramatic of a teardown as ours? The Cleveland Browns. All those top 10 picks year after year and now finally it looks like they have enough talent and experience to contend. And that was in the face of all their franchise dysfunction.

That's the problem there is no quick fix for. We have to build a winning culture, gain actual league experience(players and coaches alike) AND continue to bolster our below average roster depth. That is no small undertaking so being impatient with it will only serve to add unnecessary stress. 

Reasonable expectations are year three to have a winning record, year four have our first ever back-to-back winning seasons and by year five to be a top 10 NFL team. I think that is a more than reasonable expectation that allows many offseason cycles to continue to draft well, expand our roster core, make key signings, fix glaring roster holes and add the necessary experience to be a title winning team.

Edited August 23, 2021 by kungfoodude

[SetfreexX]

21 hours ago, NAS said:

Most new coaches have a honeymoon period that gets them the benefit of the doubt and a lot of leeway with, not only the owner, but the media and the fans.

I think that, in his second year, Rhule is still on a honeymoon period with Tepper and the media.

With the fans, however, I feel like Rhule had a very short lived honeymoon period that basically ended when he had to release Cam and signed Bridgewater. Even though his team overachieved last year based on the fact that team was in a full rebuild mode, he doesn’t seem very popular with the fans who remain skeptical. 

There seem to be three main reasons for this:

1. Rebuild since 2018

Many fans don’t consider the rebuild to have started in 2020. Instead, they date it back to 2018 when Tepper bought the team. They unfairly are taking their frustrations out on Rhule even though he has not had a chance to really put together his program yet. Even last year, he had to deal with the inept Hurney. Historically it took him until year 3 to build a winning program. No such patience with this fanbase.

2. Lack of NFL experience.
Right or wrong, many fans don’t seem to put as much value on his leadership abilities to put together winning programs like in college. They think college head coaches seldom translate to the NFL often emphasizing failed experiments with Saban, Kelly and others. I think the main difference is that Saban relied on getting the top players, Kelly on offensive scheme.  Rhule relied neither on top recruits nor the X’s and O’s, he simply maximized everyone’s potential to work together as a team.
 

3. QB decisions

Starting with Cam’s release, Bridgewater signing and now the Darnold trade, some think Rhule is in over his head and doesn’t realize how important the QB position is in the NFL.  This is perhaps his biggest unknown.  If he can really redeem Darnold and get him to be elite, then he will silence all doubters for a very long time. 
 

In conclusion, it’s clear that this year is crucial for Rhule as far as fan support is concerned. The honeymoon period is already over and expectations are higher than perhaps is fair to have in only the second year coaching.

This is where I am with this at the moment, in relation to Fields specifically who was available at no. 8 -- I understand they are trying to build an elite level defense, and round out the entire roster in a what that was never emphasized in the Rivera era. 

IMO passing on TOP QB talent similar to Lamar / Kyler is a stupide decision when the position you take is a corner. If we'd gone Slater, then okay as that is the 2nd most important position on offense outside of QB and one of the hardest to find as we can attest. 

With a talented rookie like Fields in this offense, with this staff IMO the sky is the limit. With all the maneuvering that was done on draft day, we could've found a starting caliber corner with size on day 2, and with a QB on a rookie contract if they wanted to invest in the secondary via a contract we'd have that flexibility. 

Maybe we are taking the SF approach, get a QB with talent for basically a 2nd (same compensation as Garropollo) and surround him with the best roster possible to put the QB in a position where he doesn't have to win every down / game. Once a full team is in place and the QB doesn't work out you're in a better position to sacrifice a few picks to jump up the board. 

The only thing is....it took injury after injury to even put them in range of having a 1st rounder high enough to move up. Without all those injuries, they're a playoff team. I'm annoyed they were able to add Lance. And will likely also get compensation for Jimmy. 

IMO that is where we messed up, take the QB -- create a REAL competition, and also solidify the back up spot / future, while also having some trade bait to a QB hungry team in Darnold. We just handed him the keys, I don't like giving a guy anything, he came in versus PJ and Will, and got his 5th year picked up as well. He has no pressure to perform. It's a soft approach and it's why I remain skeptical, I think they got Cam wrong as when healthy (which was in question, I repeat in question) he's better than Bridgewater, and Bridgewater has been better (doesn't have the arm talent) but has been better than Darnold to date who at no point was better than a healthy Cam. 

So for me if they fail again at QB, I'm ready to move on because we should have drafted Fields, as that would have given us a clear direction as he is more talented than Darnold. 

[shaqattaq]

21 hours ago, 1of10Charnatives said:

@NASI like the way you laid out your points. Simple, straightforward, well reasoned. Good post.

I agree, good post, but I'll make it even more simple. A lot of us are just tired of losing. Let Rhule win 9-10 games this season, and all will be forgiven.

BTW, I like Rhule so far. We're definitely a team on the rise.

[rippadonn]

21 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

I think you have to group some of the fans to gage what the honeymoon period will be. I think for the hardcore/long term Pamthers fans, 2022 will start to be when the heat is on. For the bulk of the fans(more casual) it won't be much about a honeymoon period or the seat getting hot, it will be just a steady decrease in fan interest. This still isn't an area with a large and rabid fanbase, so it will be easy for the bulk of the casual fans to just pay attention to other sports.

For the media, I think Rhule will start to feel the heat in 2022 if the 2021 season doesn't show much improvement. 

Hornets are gonna hurt that box-office.