Postgame thoughts. Preseason game 2

[NiceDreams]

1 hour ago, glenwo2 said:

surrrre.     Let's go with that, buddy. 

 

Zach could end up being yet another Mark Sanchez (but without the weapons to help him succeed his first two seasons).    Good Luck...pffft!

I'll take back-to-back AFC Championship Games. Maybe we can actually win one this time.

[Tepper's Chest Hair]

4 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

But now that you have said that you did,

Wait what?  Please reread things.

 

4 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

Yes, I want to see him play myself with a new team and in this offense.

Without the 1st string, without the actual offense implemented.  Which means even if Darnold was out there for the entire quarter, he would not have been playing with the new team and in this offense.

 

4 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

And I already acknowledged they're running dumbed down, vanilla versions of plays and schemes in preseason before you typed that up in your most recent reply.  But, even with those generic versions of playcalling, you still gain experience and a feel for everything with new teammates.

So you acknowledge that he would not be playing "in this offense" even if he was playing.  Thanks for agreeing with me that its a non factor to bring up.

Exeperience and feel with new teammates? Which he also gets in the joint practices, on a higher level.  Are you worried about the Sam Darnold/Colin Thompson chemistry?  Or his chemistry with Ishmael Hyman?

Specifically.  What experience and feel for new team mates are you looking for him to get that he is unable to get without playing enough snaps in a preseason game?

 

4 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

So again, what are you arguing?  You're not...  You're just simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

I am pointing out how you are literally contradicting yourself in your own whiney statements.  I am pointing out how Sam Darnold not playing in a meaningless pre season game where he would not be playing with a full complement of 1st stringer or running the actual offense does not give him any experience with the people or offense.

People are over valuing the usefulness of preseason games in todays NFL.

They were mostly useless before.  Now even more useless with joint practices.

They are glorified practices taking advantage of TV deals that give a larger focus on fringe players and depth.  Not for starters working on that chemistry with the 3rd string.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tepper's Chest Hair

[Proudiddy]

28 minutes ago, Tepper's Chest Hair said:

Wait what?  Please reread things.

 

Without the 1st string, without the actual offense implemented.  Which means even if Darnold was out there for the entire quarter, he would not have been playing with the new team and in this offense.

 

So you acknowledge that he would not be playing "in this offense" even if he was playing.  Thanks for agreeing with me that its a non factor to bring up.

Exeperience and feel with new teammates? Which he also gets in the joint practices, on a higher level.  Are you worried about the Sam Darnold/Colin Thompson chemistry?  Or his chemistry with Ishmael Hyman?

Specifically.  What experience and feel for new team mates are you looking for him to get that he is unable to get without playing enough snaps in a preseason game?

 

I am pointing out how you are literally contradicting yourself in your own whiney statements.  I am pointing out how Sam Darnold not playing in a meaningless pre season game where he would not be playing with a full complement of 1st stringer or running the actual offense does not give him any experience with the people or offense.

People are over valuing the usefulness of preseason games in todays NFL.

They were mostly useless before.  Now even more useless with joint practices.

They are glorified practices taking advantage of TV deals that give a larger focus on fringe players and depth.  Not for starters working on that chemistry with the 3rd string.

 

To your first quote, my bad...  didn't see the "not."  But the point remains the same in regards to CMC.  You were presenting that simply as an argument to further your opinion about Darnold not playing, and it doesn't work for all of the reasons I previously mentioned.

I've also mentioned earlier in TC elsewhere on the forums that the best coaches (i.e. Belichick) use the preseason to practice situational football and give their guys reps, especially in different circumstances. They use it less as a gauge of how good their team is with less concern about the outcome, and more as an opportunity to see how they handle those situations, while giving them more chances to evaluate talent.

I didnt say play Darnold because preseason football outcomes matter or because it's important for that reason.  It's important because it's more reps than he would otherwise get in just joint practices, in different situations...  and as the new guy leading this offense, more reps do indeed matter.  And they may run more of a base scheme in preseason, but the throws, and the routes, the timing obviously all translate.  And yes, I as a fan, would love to have seen more of that instead of relying on the 10 tweets a day we got with very little detail each day of TC.  And again, as CRA pointed out previously in this thread, Belichick just did exactly what I'm advocating for with his team...  but if you want to trust Rhule's approach over Belichick's, then more power to you.

And again, saying he'd be throwing to 5th and 6th stringers is you just being purpose obtuse to obfuscate the whole point I was making to begin with, which was a very simple one...  More reps matter.  Period.

 

[BIGH2001]

1 hour ago, Proudiddy said:

To your first quote, my bad...  didn't see the "not."  But the point remains the same in regards to CMC.  You were presenting that simply as an argument to further your opinion about Darnold not playing, and it doesn't work for all of the reasons I previously mentioned.

I've also mentioned earlier in TC elsewhere on the forums that the best coaches (i.e. Belichick) use the preseason to practice situational football and give their guys reps, especially in different circumstances. They use it less as a gauge of how good their team is with less concern about the outcome, and more as an opportunity to see how they handle those situations, while giving them more chances to evaluate talent.

I didnt say play Darnold because preseason football outcomes matter or because it's important for that reason.  It's important because it's more reps than he would otherwise get in just joint practices, in different situations...  and as the new guy leading this offense, more reps do indeed matter.  And they may run more of a base scheme in preseason, but the throws, and the routes, the timing obviously all translate.  And yes, I as a fan, would love to have seen more of that instead of relying on the 10 tweets a day we got with very little detail each day of TC.  And again, as CRA pointed out previously in this thread, Belichick just did exactly what I'm advocating for with his team...  but if you want to trust Rhule's approach over Belichick's, then more power to you.

And again, saying he'd be throwing to 5th and 6th stringers is you just being purpose obtuse to obfuscate the whole point I was making to begin with, which was a very simple one...  More reps matter.  Period.

 

Exactly. It’s really not any different than a late season game when we are 4-10 and going nowhere.  The coaches would likely want anyone who isn’t a cornerstone player to start and get reps. 

[glenwo2]

10 hours ago, NiceDreams said:

I'll take back-to-back AFC Championship Games. Maybe we can actually win one this time.

Maybe...Zach runs into his lineman's ass before that happens.   You never know.

Speaking of AFC Championship Games, Jets messed up by not re-signing Braylon Edwards and instead chose CrapTonio Holmes but I digress.

BTW, are you a former Jets fan or are you a fan that is just here following what is happening with Sam?

Edited August 23, 2021 by glenwo2

[SOJA]

Need a kicker

First and second year's draft classes look like a grand slam and at least a triple respectively

Darnold didn't look horrible against one of the better defenses in the NFL

 

[NiceDreams]

4 hours ago, glenwo2 said:

Maybe...Zach runs into his lineman's ass before that happens.   You never know.

Speaking of AFC Championship Games, Jets messed up by not re-signing Braylon Edwards and instead chose CrapTonio Holmes but I digress.

BTW, are you a former Jets fan or are you a fan that is just here following what is happening with Sam?

Don't get me started on Santonio...smh. I'm a full functioning Jets fan in good standing. Just following Sam as I was a big supporter of his when we first drafted him and truly want nothing but success for the young man. He's a great kid who was given the worst HC / situation in all the NFL. There really is no where for him to go but up from the hellscape that was Adam Gase.

[glenwo2]

1 hour ago, NiceDreams said:

Don't get me started on Santonio...smh. I'm a full functioning Jets fan in good standing. Just following Sam as I was a big supporter of his when we first drafted him and truly want nothing but success for the young man. He's a great kid who was given the worst HC / situation in all the NFL. There really is no where for him to go but up from the hellscape that was Adam Gase.

 

Oh really?

This is your post before :

Quote

A big part of playing QB is between the ears and Sam just doesn't process information quickly enough to be a quality first string NFL QB. If there is one thing that became obvious to our entire fanbase after watching him over the past 3 years it's this.....If Sam's first read is not open, bad things tend to happen more often than not. Best of luck to you guys this year and hopefully Ruhle can squeeze some lemonade out of lemons from the QB position.

Doesn't sound like someone who "truly wants nothing but success for the young man", now does it?

[NiceDreams]

4 hours ago, glenwo2 said:

 

Oh really?

This is your post before :

Doesn't sound like someone who "truly wants nothing but success for the young man", now does it?

Both of these things can be true simultaneously. Hoping, and wishing Sam has success for your team, while at the same time acknowledging one of his weaknesses during his first 3 seasons has been an inability to process information and get through his progressions quickly. As much as I like him, I also have eyes and watched every single game of his young career. My personal feelings about his success has no bearing on making an honest and good faith assessment of his strengths and weaknesses. 

[panfanman]

I'm watching the replay right now on NFLN with closed caption.  Did I just read the play by play guy call our team the "Barney Rubble" team? LMAO

I'm assuming they are referring to Rhule?  IDK.

[MasterAwesome]

18 hours ago, Proudiddy said:

To your first quote, my bad...  didn't see the "not."  But the point remains the same in regards to CMC.  You were presenting that simply as an argument to further your opinion about Darnold not playing, and it doesn't work for all of the reasons I previously mentioned.

I've also mentioned earlier in TC elsewhere on the forums that the best coaches (i.e. Belichick) use the preseason to practice situational football and give their guys reps, especially in different circumstances. They use it less as a gauge of how good their team is with less concern about the outcome, and more as an opportunity to see how they handle those situations, while giving them more chances to evaluate talent.

I didnt say play Darnold because preseason football outcomes matter or because it's important for that reason.  It's important because it's more reps than he would otherwise get in just joint practices, in different situations...  and as the new guy leading this offense, more reps do indeed matter.  And they may run more of a base scheme in preseason, but the throws, and the routes, the timing obviously all translate.  And yes, I as a fan, would love to have seen more of that instead of relying on the 10 tweets a day we got with very little detail each day of TC.  And again, as CRA pointed out previously in this thread, Belichick just did exactly what I'm advocating for with his team...  but if you want to trust Rhule's approach over Belichick's, then more power to you.

And again, saying he'd be throwing to 5th and 6th stringers is you just being purpose obtuse to obfuscate the whole point I was making to begin with, which was a very simple one...  More reps matter.  Period.

 

The overall argument that Darnold should be getting more reps in preseason is fair and there are definitely some compelling points you could make for that.  Unfortunately, what sparked this whole back-and-forth between you two is that you were doing a pretty terrible job making your argument.  Your premises were largely nonsensical. 

-You said the fact that we ran it three straight plays at the goal line instead of opting for a playaction pass is a testament to how the team feels about Darnold (i.e. they don't trust him in that situation).  That may be true if your objective of preseason is to win the game...which is why people have been questioning your understanding of preseason.  Rather, preseason is about evaluation - and if they choose to keep it on the ground for 3 consecutive plays at the goal line, then chances are, they feel relatively comfortable with Darnold's ability to execute in the red zone and would rather evaluate the o-line/running back's ability to punch it in from the 1.

-You also suggested the fact that we aren't playing Darnold much at all in the preseason means the coaching staff doesn't trust him.  In reality, there's generally an inverse relationship between the amount of a player's preseason playing time vs. the level of trust the coaching staff has in him.  If a coach is leaving you out there for the majority of the game...chances are, he's pretty unsure about you.

[Proudiddy]

1 hour ago, MasterAwesome said:

The overall argument that Darnold should be getting more reps in preseason is fair and there are definitely some compelling points you could make for that.  Unfortunately, what sparked this whole back-and-forth between you two is that you were doing a pretty terrible job making your argument.  Your premises were largely nonsensical. 

-You said the fact that we ran it three straight plays at the goal line instead of opting for a playaction pass is a testament to how the team feels about Darnold (i.e. they don't trust him in that situation).  That may be true if your objective of preseason is to win the game...which is why people have been questioning your understanding of preseason.  Rather, preseason is about evaluation - and if they choose to keep it on the ground for 3 consecutive plays at the goal line, then chances are, they feel relatively comfortable with Darnold's ability to execute in the red zone and would rather evaluate the o-line/running back's ability to punch it in from the 1.

-You also suggested the fact that we aren't playing Darnold much at all in the preseason means the coaching staff doesn't trust him.  In reality, there's generally an inverse relationship between the amount of a player's preseason playing time vs. the level of trust the coaching staff has in him.  If a coach is leaving you out there for the majority of the game...chances are, he's pretty unsure about you.

Valid counterpoints, but I disagree with you.

On the first point, I did initially say that it appeared we approached the goalline situation how we did bc they didn't trust Darnold.  It was short-sighted and said in frustration of the moment.  But, I also have cited since TC how the best coaches use preseason for situational evaluation and execution rather than final outcomes.  I even cited that here as we got further into the discussion.  I also think I read after the fact, that Rhule wanted us to use that situation to execute on the line and see if we could pound the ball in.  Ok, thats fine...  but, I stand by my assertion that the fact that they limited his reps and snaps in the games has to do with them feeling uneasy about his readiness.  I do think they are trying to protect him mentally, as well as physically.  No, coaches shouldn't be making decisions based off public perception, but it matters.  The top coaches in the league have held joint practices AND played their starters in both games so far.  Rhule has his own style, but I legitimately think they were trying to limit Sam's exposure.

And to your second point, I agree that more trust usually results in less preseason snaps, but again, as I mentioned in my previous posts here, that couldn't be further from the truth in Sam's case, and that is fairly obvious. They might trust him to some degree, but it's because they have to...  they have no other option they believe can legitimately take them where they want to go on the roster.  But he hasn't earned that trust yet.  A new guy, on a new team, in a new offense after pretty much being considered a bust three years into his career - that guy isn't sitting because his reputation speaks for itself.  Again, I believe it was to limit his exposure while trying to give him the entirety of TC and the first two weeks of preseason to hopefully get more comfortable in what he was doing before the final game.  And I maintain that you're better off giving him more reps in live games, but this is the approach Rhule has chosen.

[Anybodyhome]

I'll provide the same effort in crafting this response as the Panthers did playing Saturday night....

Meh.

[panthers55]

I am interested in seeing how joint practices compare to preseason games in terms of getting the players ready. Because joint practices allow you to play the same team twice watching film in between, you can correct your mistakes and learn from them. In preseason games it is once and done and film in retrospect but you can't change your technique and come back the next day and fix it. Plus we came out flat both days initially. But we gained confidence we could play with anyone when we bounced back the following day. Would we have played as well in the game with no joint practices? Will we look better or worse against Pittsburgh without joint practices Friday night?

But with 2 games 5 days apart I can see why he rested many of the starters and will play them for a half against Pittsburgh.  It is preseason but I bet Tepper wants to do well against his old team. We might try and actually win this one...

Edited August 23, 2021 by panthers55