Records show Charlotte lacks money for a new stadium

[electro's horse]

3 minutes ago, Smithers said:

They do.  Especially if they are used to host multiple events per year.  Not only are you collecting taxes on a billion dollar facility, you’re collecting tourism taxes in every hotel room sold, food and beverage tax on every meal served, beer and wine tax on every drink sold, in addition to general sales benefit to each restaurant, hotel, gas station, etc patrons visit before and after the event. Occupancy taxes alone generate millions per year in revenue.  

There have been innumerable studies on the effects of cities subsidizing stadium construction and across the economic spectrum, from fresh to saltwater economics, it never pans out. it's always a waste of money. 

when you're having to justify it with 4th and 5th degree effects you should probably just stop posting.

like lmao gas station revenue? get the fug out

[frankw]

49 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

how did you read that post and come to any of those conclusions

like what are you trying to say

If I misinterpreted your intent then I retract my remark. But it's not something I care to make light of for crass lols. The people of Charlotte and surrounding areas never should have lost the franchise. Who knows what could have been in that lost time. To say it was downhill from there would be an understatement. George Shinn knows he's trash for what he did.

[CPcavedweller]

10 hours ago, Tbe said:

...Interesting article. It almost sounds like there is a high level plan that Tepper and the city share for that area. Obviously, who pays for what will be the big fight.

https://www.wbtv.com/2021/07/22/records-show-charlotte-lacks-money-new-stadium/

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A WBTV Investigation shows the Queen City’s capacity to contribute to stadium projects is much lower than what’s recently been agreed upon in other NFL cities.

Financial records shared by city staffers during a Charlotte Regional Visitors Authority board meeting show that the capacity to take on debt for major stadium construction is somewhat limited by other projects the city has already financed.

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“I don’t feel that the capacity is there at the moment in the existing tax structure,” District 7 Councilman Ed Driggs told WBTV

Councilman and financial institution veteran Ed Driggs told WBTV he has doubts about the cities pot of money to pay for the deal.

“Particularly because we have a pipeline of capital projects that will probably soak up a lot of that of existing capacity,” Driggs said.

In addition to future potential projects like Discovery Place and Blumenthal Performing Arts, the city is already committed to $174 million in debt in the Convention Center fund, including more than $100 million for recent convention center upgrades.

———————-

Economist Andrew Zimbalist told WBTV that deals between franchise owners and cities that look beyond a specific dollar contribution have proven more fruitful for taxpayers.

“Cities are finding it more and more difficult to justify the expenditures as the prices go up in urban areas,” Zimbalist said.

“What we’ll do is we’ll give you the land for the stadium. Not only that, but we’ll give you some acres around it for parking lots and we’ll give you some more acres for commercial and residential development and then you can make your money off of those other things that will help pay back.”

 

That’s not to dissimilar from the plan currently unfolding between Charlotte and Tepper.

The City has already reached an agreement with Tepper and a developer for new soccer fields, residential units and commercial enterprises at Eastland. The city is also still negotiating with Tepper around a mixed-use/entertainment district in the area near Bank of America Stadium and the Charlotte Pipe and Foundry property, which could be crucial to the development of a future stadium.

Rezoning Pipe and Foundry and using a mixed-use/entertainment district to link it with the Gateway District, home of a future transit center for Amtrak could be crucial to plans moving forward.

———————-

“More likely than not, at the end of the day, for the vast majority of these deals, they should not be looked upon as a promoter for the economy,” Zimbalist said.

“They’re not going to raise overall employment. They’re not going to raise per capita income, and what you want to do as a city if you want to have a sports team, whether it’s MLS, NFL or NBA or whatever it might be, try to make a deal that is financially neutral.”

Charlotte will slowly become an over-regulated, over taxed black hole with the rate of financing they are undertaking. I'd be interested to know if the bonds for repayment are pre-approved for all projects and if any single person is aware of each of the projects. 

With a more tame approach, getting a locality that approaches 1,000,000 people to agree to a .0025% tax increase to finance A project isn't terrible. 

But with the cities reticence to partner with the Panthers to build a stadium, I think it's important to look at how the Panthers and Hornets have contributed to the economic growth of the area. Some will say not much, some will say not at all, but I believe a study could be conducted with actual numbers to determine their contribution to the influx of skilled labor, business, jobs, etc.

[SizzleBuzz]

3 hours ago, electro's horse said:

remember when the voters of charlotte told george shinn to go fug himself instead of paying for a new stadium, the referendum failed and he left town, then the city council voted to build a new stadium anyway

Then they did it again!

[Smithers]

2 hours ago, electro's horse said:

There have been innumerable studies on the effects of cities subsidizing stadium construction and across the economic spectrum, from fresh to saltwater economics, it never pans out. it's always a waste of money. 

when you're having to justify it with 4th and 5th degree effects you should probably just stop posting.

like lmao gas station revenue? get the fug out

This article was about offering other incentives short of Subsidizing stadium construction.  Such as land acquisition costs, zoning concessions (relaxing density requirements or buffering/screening requirements), etc.  Local governments have plenty of mechanisms to assist with projects beyond writing a check for construction.  
 

there have been hundreds of studies that show the economic benefit of sporting venues.  So you can get the fug out .  The latest research shows BOA has a nearly 600 million a year economic impact  

Edited July 24, 2021 by Smithers

[iamhubby1]

Wow. And I thought those Cap people were mean.

 

I guess it's true. Tax talk gets folks heated.

 

Would be interesting to know who is actually factually correct in this thread. Lots of information being thrown around. Not everyone can be right. Right?

[Riverboat Ron]

It's all a conspiracy to move the team to Gastonia.

[iamhubby1]

16 minutes ago, Riverboat Ron said:

It's all a conspiracy to move the team to Gastonia.

 

Where they going to put it? Behind the old Piggly Wiggly? lol

[Riverboat Ron]

4 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

Where they going to put it? Behind the old Piggly Wiggly? lol

Just build it over 85 and create an endless loop of gridlock traffic.

[Ja Rhule]

Charlotte have plenty of money.  Nonsense.

[frankw]

2 hours ago, CPcavedweller said:

I think it's important to look at how the Panthers and Hornets have contributed to the economic growth of the area. Some will say not much, some will say not at all, but I believe a study could be conducted with actual numbers to determine their contribution to the influx of skilled labor, business, jobs, etc.

People can gripe about the success of the team but the Hornets are and will remain a popular draw for the area and newer generations of fans are embracing them. The franchise occupies a space that was much cheaper to build yet it still looks great and functions fine. With the Panthers the question is how relevant is the franchise nationally or furthermore internationally for a fresh cost of a billion plus dollars? They have only just become more prominent in the immediate area the last ten years and now they are back to square one. They can only hold so many events and that new car smell won't last forever.

[electro's horse]

2 hours ago, Smithers said:

This article was about offering other incentives short of Subsidizing stadium construction.  Such as land acquisition costs, zoning concessions (relaxing density requirements or buffering/screening requirements), etc.  Local governments have plenty of mechanisms to assist with projects beyond writing a check for construction.  
 

there have been hundreds of studies that show the economic benefit of sporting venues.  So you can get the fug out .  The latest research shows BOA has a nearly 600 million a year economic impact  

I spoke specifically about how public funding never plays out, not the "economic benefits" of stadiums in general, of which are generally concentrated into a few mega wealthy owners and a pittance of low wage jobs. 

buts lets play. lets pretend you're actually arguing in good faith and aren't just upset because i overturned your apple cart of comforting truths that you roll around in your head while imaging that some day your meaningless middle management job will turn into something you're not embarrassed to tell your dad about. 

of the hundreds of studies you claim exist, im assuming you mean this

https://www.charlottecentercity.org/call-to-action-support-the-carolina-panthers-and-bank-of-america-stadium-improvements/

which is the only thing i can find for 600 million dollars. This is of course from 2013, and referring to a stadium that was NOT publicly funded. im assuming its this because you quoted it directly. i guess you were so eager to finally find one of the "hundreds of studies" that you didn't bother looking at the date.

and of course, this doesn't even imply what you think it does, since it's not claiming "revenue"; it's claiming "economic impact." what is economic impact? sounds to me like a buzzword created by marketing types to try to fleece the government out of free money, and sway ignorant, low information voters/information consumers like yourself. which, clearly, it did. 

also lmao this fluff piece talks about 5,000 jobs. assuming this correct, how many a. are full time (none) b. pay a living wage (few) c. have benefits (lmao)

And who is the charlotte center city organization? essentially its a trade organization of private businesses that lobby the city government to build things. IE people that want the public to pay for things that will benefit them economically. 

so to recap, of the "hundreds of studies" you claim to exist supporting the idea that public funding for sports stadiums pays out in the end, which of course would be what you were doing if you had any reading comprehension, you

1. picked an article from 2013

2. that's about a privately funded stadium

3. that doesn't even refute what i said

4. that was begging for government money from a private group

if this was the best thing you can find about those hundreds of articles im assuming you've read, or else you wouldn't have referenced them, you don't need to respond. just go back to dreaming about one day finishing that mba so you can follow the path of michael scott or whatever pitiful example you model your life after

 

[electro's horse]

1 hour ago, frankw said:

People can gripe about the success of the team but the Hornets are and will remain a popular draw for the area and newer generations of fans are embracing them. 

tied for 28th in attendance in 2020

23rd in 2019

obviously things were a little weird this year

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2019

[frankw]

23 minutes ago, electro's horse said:

tied for 28th in attendance in 2020

23rd in 2019

obviously things were a little weird this year

http://www.espn.com/nba/attendance/_/year/2019

'15 '16 and '17 they were doing better and closer to the middle. Mismanagement poor drafting and the decline of Kemba Walker did them no favors in the following years. Now they have LaMelo and just have to be competent enough to keep building around him and those attendance numbers will improve again.