CBSsports 2020 redraft

[Prowler2k18]

17 hours ago, SOJA said:

The biggest point to make here is that Isiah Simmons was a bad pick at the time and looks even worse now

Like most players, Simmons has to be in the right situation to flourish. He’s a building block on a D but not a foundation piece. An athletic player LB that would shine behind a stout DL like the ones we’ve had in the past. That’s why Derrick Brown was the right pick for a defense that was in desperate need of an overhaul. 

[45catfan]

19 hours ago, SOJA said:

The biggest point to make here is that Isiah Simmons was a bad pick at the time and looks even worse now

Don't tell Tiger faithful that.  Remember, we were stupid to draft Brown over Simmons.  The thing is people that are die-hard fans of certain programs like Clemson, 'Bama, OSU etc... are so blinded by their homerism they can't see that players often benefit from these cherry situations they are in.  It's difficult for them to scrutinize a player for factors that the stat sheet won't often disclose.  Items like scheme, talent of opposition (rather the lack of) and consistent blue-chip recruitment by their school.  Simmons looked good because of the insanely ridiculously good D-line in front of him that allowed him to play clean nearly every freaking snap.  It was apparent, at least to me, once he got to the NFL where he would not have that same luxury, that his game would not translate well.  It doesn't matter to me because we ended up drafting the hybrid LB/S I wanted anyway in Jeremy Chinn and, by the way, Derrick Brown hasn't disappointed either.

[Basbear]

On 7/9/2021 at 9:12 PM, pantherclaw said:

Thanks, but not thanks. 

You can’t build a defense from the back forward. 

That maybe dated thinking, for years now most Offenses have been getting the ball out faster. Many teams shoot for less than 2.0 seconds form snap to pass. Of course QB has to catch the snap-start throwing motion-release. I member a old sport science vid on this topic. Just a adjustment has been made to counter elite DLmen, you dont even have to block them, just impede their move path to the QB. Found it

 

On 7/10/2021 at 10:25 AM, Captain Morgan said:

surprised to YGM in that list.  

Ive said a few times before this, if YGM was in this year's draft, he would have been an 1st rounder, Im about 99% sure. He may have been the first DL picked as well, just a super poor year for DL. Its still early but Herniay's last draft is feeling like Gman's last draft. It maybe the best one in Herniay's career even with most of the 4-7 guys getting cut this year. YGM can play some DT as well, hes one of the true wild cards on the team. If the switch gets flipped...... panthers will give good teams big problems with Burns, Brown, and YGM all needing doubles/attention. Right now I feel YGM will be a better Mike Rucker. YGM is a real 6'5, around 270 with good strength. Hes basically one of the top projects for strength coach Jeremy Scott. 

If he reports at a focused 285 LBs and added some pass rush moves, watch-out now....

[iamhubby1]

1 hour ago, Basbear said:

That maybe dated thinking, for years now most Offenses have been getting the ball out faster. Many teams shoot for less than 2.0 seconds form snap to pass. Of course QB has to catch the snap-start throwing motion-release. I member a old sport science vid on this topic. Just a adjustment has been made to counter elite DLmen, you dont even have to block them, just impede their move path to the QB. Found it

 

Brady had the quickest release last year. It was 2,6 seconds. Just saying

[onmyown]

11 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

Brady had the quickest release last year. It was 2,6 seconds. Just saying

Uh, this is false. Do you guys even look into what you’re posting? 

Rivers, Rothlisburger, Dalton, Fitzpatrick, Foles, Tua, even Dwayne Haskins and a couple others…

If we say at least 400 attempts (reasonable starter #), would just be Rivers and Rothlisburger and a tie with Burrow and only .03 seconds away from our very own TB.

I don’t know where that whole ‘teams shoot for less that 2 seconds came from…literally not happened in history. The fastest in the league for 2020 is Ben at 2.3 and the rest are more toward 3. 
 

On a side note with 400 attempts, TB was the 4th fastest in the NFL.  Two above him him had a top oline. Brady - 5, Rivera - 7. Ben really did some good stuff as his line was ranked right before TBs at 17.  Should really think on that and how it relates to how atrocious an oline had to be to tank below average with a top 5 quickest release in the NFL.
 

[iamhubby1]

7 minutes ago, onmyown said:

Uh, this is false. Do you guys even look into what you’re posting? 

Rivers, Rothlisburger, Dalton, Fitzpatrick, Foles, Tua, even Dwayne Haskins and a couple others…

If we say at least 400 attempts (reasonable starter #), would just be Rivers and Rothlisburger and a tie with Burrow and only .03 seconds away from our very own TB.

I don’t know where that whole ‘teams shoot for less that 2 seconds came from…literally not happened in history. The fastest in the league for 2020 is Ben at 2.3 and the rest are more toward 3. 
 

On a side note with 400 attempts, TB was the 4th fastest in the NFL.  Two above him him had a top oline. Brady - 5, Rivera - 7. Ben really did some good stuff as his line was ranked right before TBs at 17.  Should really think on that and how it relates to how atrocious an oline had to be to tank below average with a top 5 quickest release in the NFL.
 

 

I will state for the record that I was looking at 15 by mistake. So I looked at 20, and it is indeed that Steelers QB. Coming in at 2.29. 

 

So yes, I did look at what I was posting. Just didn't look close enough. I will endeavor to be more accurate in the future

[pantherclaw]

Without a pass rush, the coverage doesn't matter. 

[hepcat]

On 7/10/2021 at 9:25 AM, Captain Morgan said:

surprised to YGM in that list.  

He was projected to be a late first round pick originally. Didn’t really see him so much of anything to justify that last season. Seemed to be drafted about where he should have. Could definitely turn it on though, physical talent is there.

[45catfan]

18 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Without a pass rush, the coverage doesn't matter. 

And vice-versa.  A solid secondary can allow a tardy pass rush to get home.  Point being, one benefits the other.  In an ideal world you have a solid secondary and effective edge rushers rendering the entire debate moot.

[pantherclaw]

Just now, 45catfan said:

And vice-versa.  A solid secondary can allow a tardy pass rush to get home.  Point being, one benefits the other.  In an ideal world you have a solid secondary and effective edge rushers rendering the entire debate moot.

Yes, I agree. 

 

Still, must have a pass rush. From there you can insert coverage guys. 

[SOJA]

4 hours ago, Prowler2k18 said:

Like most players, Simmons has to be in the right situation to flourish. He’s a building block on a D but not a foundation piece. An athletic player LB that would shine behind a stout DL like the ones we’ve had in the past. That’s why Derrick Brown was the right pick for a defense that was in desperate need of an overhaul. 

agreed but a tweener should never be your pick in the top ten imo

[Basbear]

1 hour ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

Brady had the quickest release last year. It was 2,6 seconds. Just saying

 

51 minutes ago, onmyown said:

Uh, this is false. Do you guys even look into what you’re posting? 

Rivers, Rothlisburger, Dalton, Fitzpatrick, Foles, Tua, even Dwayne Haskins and a couple others…

If we say at least 400 attempts (reasonable starter #), would just be Rivers and Rothlisburger and a tie with Burrow and only .03 seconds away from our very own TB.

I don’t know where that whole ‘teams shoot for less that 2 seconds came from…literally not happened in history. The fastest in the league for 2020 is Ben at 2.3 and the rest are more toward 3. 
 

On a side note with 400 attempts, TB was the 4th fastest in the NFL.  Two above him him had a top oline. Brady - 5, Rivera - 7. Ben really did some good stuff as his line was ranked right before TBs at 17.  Should really think on that and how it relates to how atrocious an oline had to be to tank below average with a top 5 quickest release in the NFL.
 

"*Shoot for*" much like old OL coaches want the line to block for 8 seconds. They want the time as low as possible in making a pass. In a way you could remove all OL except for the C and still get a pass off so long as the DTs are DTs and not ADonald. That makes the having a elite DL less useful, in the sense they no longer impact the game as much. Plus you dont need an elite cast of OL. I use to think that DL was the only way, that changes when QBs gets the ball nano fast. I was also a zone-CB believer too. Man-to-Man forces the Offenses to change the quick release play calls, thus helping bring value back to DL. If you dont change the play call, the WR must win or the CB is housing the ball. Honestly its a marriage deal between DL and DBs, they need one another. 

[onmyown]

18 minutes ago, Basbear said:

 

"*Shoot for*" much like old OL coaches want the line to block for 8 seconds. They want the time as low as possible in making a pass. In a way you could remove all OL except for the C and still get a pass off so long as the DTs are DTs and not ADonald. That makes the having a elite DL less useful, in the sense they no longer impact the game as much. Plus you dont need an elite cast of OL. I use to think that DL was the only way, that changes when QBs gets the ball nano fast. I was also a zone-CB believer too. Man-to-Man forces the Offenses to change the quick release play calls, thus helping bring value back to DL. If you dont change the play call, the WR must win or the CB is housing the ball. Honestly its a marriage deal between DL and DBs, they need one another. 

Every super bowl contender in the last 20 years has had a top oline except 2-3 examples in which case had an outlier HOF/HOF season QB (both Mannings for example. Or in very rare examples, the oline went from crap (Giants) somehow transformed into elite from regular season to post. The only other consistent commonality is a top defense. That includes QB play (which is #3).

According to history, you do in fact need a top oline even before elite QB play.

Fact of the matter is - a team with elite lines/trenches will always be in the mix to compete in the playoffs despite the rest of the team.

Edited July 11, 2021 by onmyown

[Basbear]

1 minute ago, onmyown said:

Every super bowl contender in the last 20 years has had a top oline except 2-3 examples in which case had an outlier HOF/HOF season QB (both Mannings for example. Or in very rare examples, the oline went from crap (Giants) somehow transformed into elite from regular season to post. The only other consistent commonality is a top defense. That includes QB play (which is #3).

According to history, you do in fact need a top oline even before elite QB play.

Does the OL need to block for 5 seconds if the design is to pass under 3? It allows you to cover up a weakness, just gives options. Not to make this more confusing, but the OL at some point has to prove they can somewhat run block as well. Thousand factors for OL= play calls, QB, game situation, etc. If the play caller is having a great day, the OL looks great.  I still agree with having focus on elite OL, but also understand their are other ways. Alex Gibbs made a system where you didnt need a elite OL and my god it worked GREAT. I believe the panthers are going to move in the Gibbs/zone model some this season.