Jermain Carter Highest PFF Panther LB Last Year

[iamhubby1]

35 minutes ago, BrianS said:

Too simplistic a take.  Luke enabled us to reach a SB.  You cannot look at "just" his stats - and those are impressive enough.  You also have to look at how many times Luke put the players around him in position to win.  It was all the freaking time.  You cannot compare Luke to other MLB's.  He's just different sauce altogether.

This isn't to say Horn wasn't the correct pick.  Our need at CB was immense.  I suspect Horn will make a greater impact for us than a Micah Parsons would have.  Parsons is a great talent, and he'll make a ton of plays.  I just think that when you look at our needs and the relative talent you're taking and the positions . . . Horn was probably the better pick.

 

Did you read the post I was replying to? @CPcavedwellersaid "I'll stand by my pick projection, we should've taken Micah Parsons instead of Horn. Cornerbacks can affect the game but a Middle Linebacker of that athletic ability alters a franchise."

 

You agree with me, but call my response "Simplistic"? I don't think I''m ever going to get the hang of this interwebz thingy. I tell ya what.

 

[onmyown]

22 hours ago, Icege said:

Shaq most often lines up at the WLB position which is often responsible for the slot. The SLB is who usually covers TEs. He was selected to be the heir to TD's role, and spent a lot of time as the Buffalo nickel tasked with covering slot WRs during his rookie season.

He only allowed 1 TD last season on 76 targets with an average depth of target being under 4yds. The team played a LOT of zone coverage in order to protect their weak DBs and pass rush, which leaves a LOT on the LBs (even more when we consider how much of a non-factor Whitehead was). Some quick stats to show this:

When we look at the data, we can see why avg DOT vs. Shaq was under 4yds as the team was often having him drop back into zone coverage, meaning receivers settling in the soft spot beneath the zone. However, Shaq was also only 3 tackles behind Jeremy Chinn (114 vs. 117) but with substantially less missed tackles (8 (6.6%) vs. 15 (%11.4)). They weren't getting passed him too often.

The 90.7 passer rating when targeting him was 5th best on the team last year behind Donte, Roy, Haynes, and Hartsfield. To put that into further perspective, those 5 players combined were targeted only 8 more times than Shaq was. Considering that the two back-up DL and Hartsfield combined for less total defensive snaps than Shaq (849 vs. 1031), those numbers start to look even more impressive. Add in the variables such as a brand new defense + staff, youth movement, having to get guys in position, etc shows that Shaq is an asset regardless of how some folks might feel about his contract numbers (which they try to defend by downplaying Shaq rather than the dude responsible for awful contracts: Hurney).

While he failed to get a pick last year, that's more due to the play calling (heavy zone usage) than it is Shaq lacking especially since only 5 defenders last year got an INT with only Donte having more than 1. Shaq's 5 PDs tied with Chinn for 3rd best on the team behind Donte + Rasul. Shaq and Chinn also tied for 2nd in forced fumbles behind Burns (bah gawd Jeremy Chinn is friggin amazing).

Personally, I cannot WAIT for the revamped secondary and pass rush to get out there with an even deeper LB group. Burns, Chinn, Shaq, Horn, Brown, Abouye, and Donte? Sprinkle in Carter, Perryman, YGM, and DaQuan? That defense is going to get off the damn field on 3rd down in 2021! 

But contracts need to be taken into account. CMC is elite but fans don’t appreciate him because of his contract. I don’t see anyone saying TB wasn’t that bad last year, breaking down stats (statistically he wasn’t) saying he would’ve been great for 8 mil. Hell Ryan Kalil would have been wonderful at vet min.

Just doesn’t work like that. Of course no one blames the player, but it absolutely should be taken with value because that’s how a roster is built and games are won. Recognizes he’s a good player but detrimental to the team financially are what separates a Panther fan from a football fan.

 

[Icege]

2 hours ago, onmyown said:

But contracts need to be taken into account. CMC is elite but fans don’t appreciate him because of his contract. I don’t see anyone saying TB wasn’t that bad last year, breaking down stats (statistically he wasn’t) saying he would’ve been great for 8 mil. Hell Ryan Kalil would have been wonderful at vet min.

Just doesn’t work like that. Of course no one blames the player, but it absolutely should be taken with value because that’s how a roster is built and games are won. Recognizes he’s a good player but detrimental to the team financially are what separates a Panther fan from a football fan.

 

Whenever LB play comes up, folks disparage Shaq's play. Some will try to slide in that "He's not worth his contract," line but will also follow that up with claiming that he's just a guy rather than a solid starter (or encourage a false narrative such as his alleged lacking in coverage). He could not be worth top 5 LB money but still be a really solid player. Spending time trying to discuss why he shouldn't have gotten paid so much from one of the worst GMs in the league when it came to contracts ignores who the real issue is there: the guy that offered him the contract.

it's right up there with folks that claimed CMC was at best a slot WR so he shouldn't have been drafted where he was.

I've said what I've said in regards to Shaq tho, and I don't want that to distract any more than it already has from how much Jermaine Carter has improved. The dude played in only 7 games compared to Whitehead's 9 but Carter Jr put up just 5 tackles less while also matching stats in pass deflections, fumble recoveries, AND had two TFLs compared to Tahir's 0. The man outplayed another with 6yrs more pro experience.

[frankw]

Carolina has been overinvesting in running backs and linebackers for years through two different general managers. Acting like people criticizing now are being unfair is just ignoring history. Now we actually have a real pass rush developing but we have limited options surrounding that due to our two most lucrative contracts on the books being in you guessed it... an rb and a linebacker. But keep on keeping on singing that company line.

[SBBlue]

32 minutes ago, frankw said:

Acting like people criticizing now are being unfair is just ignoring history.

No, we know people have been complaining the whole time.  They're real good at it.  They go on message board to complain and complain.  

Quote

 But keep on keeping on singing that company line.

Keep on deriding it.  Its all you do.

[iamhubby1]

6 minutes ago, frankw said:

Carolina has been overinvesting in running backs and linebackers for years through two different general managers. Acting like people criticizing now are being unfair is just ignoring history. Now we actually have a real pass rush developing but we have limited options surrounding that due to our two most lucrative contracts on the books being in you guessed it... an rb and a linebacker. But keep on keeping on singing that company line.

 

Dude, I mean this with all the sincerity I can muster. You are the bestest thing to happen to the Huddle in like for months, and months. Your use of hyperbole, mixed with just the right amount of imagination, is epic.

 

You could care less that your facts are a tad skewd. Or that your basic premises are out of left field. You just plow on. And the way you spin things to fit your stories...It is awe inspiring. It truly is. But my favorite? Is how you use condescension to drive your point home. Bravo dude, Bravo. Lets the little people know who the are dealing with. Hubby likey.

 

You just continue to be you. And I will continue to read your posts in stunned amazement.  

 

Oh, and Marino never had a perfect season. And our D has talent all over the field, even with those 2 massive contracts constricting our growth.

[iamhubby1]

9 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

No, we know people have been complaining the whole time.  They're real good at it.  They go on message board to complain and complain.  

Keep on deriding it.  Its all you do.

 

IMO, this guy is the most entertaining Troll we have had in quite some time. 

[frankw]

5 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

our D has talent all over the field, even with those 2 massive contracts constricting our growth.

So you do acknowledge the contracts are holding back growth in other areas but still think it's great? And you and SBBlue say I can't be reasoned with

[SBBlue]

6 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

IMO, this guy is the most entertaining Troll we have had in quite some time. 

He very clearly is.  Standard troll formula

1)List complaints he knows some will consider legitimate

2)Inserts veiled insults on the team or huddlers into every post, normally buried in the middle.  

3)Repeat one and two over and over and over and over and over.

When called out, he puts up some posts trying to sound reasonable saying yah team.

The dude hates the Panthers ....probably on his third login.

Sad part is, our mods rush to his aid.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by SBBlue

[SBBlue]

2 minutes ago, frankw said:

 I can't be reasoned with

You can't.  You just bitch, in your bitchy whiny, bitchy way.  Yes I said bitchy twice.

You pay great players.   Other teams find a way. 

[Panthers8969]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:42 PM, Scott12345 said:

doesnt speak well for shaq

Lol you don’t say? I can’t wait to see the yearly “shaq will finally breakout this year” thread. Massively overpaid and we just gave him more guaranteed money with that restructure 

[iamhubby1]

22 minutes ago, frankw said:

So you do acknowledge the contracts are holding back growth in other areas but still think it's great? And you and SBBlue say I can't be reasoned with

 

Nice spin move dude. Take words I did not use, and use them against me. Nice.

[Michael G]

A few ?s:

(1) Would Thomas Davis at his best be worth the contract ST got?

(2) How good would TD at his best be w/o Luke K. beside him? (What if he had to play with Tahir W. beside him instead) Would that guy be worth Shaq's current contract?

(3) If Shaq (or any LB) balled out and was one of the best-rated LB's in the league-would he be worth the contract that Shaq got?

Its hard for me to objectively evaluate how much players are worth. I feel like CMC is worth his contract if he performs as expected and can stay on the field. Teddy B played 5 games at NO and looked good with the group he had around him. That ultimately led to his deal, and he wasn't worth it.

As for Shaq, I think the expectations for him were very high, but I do believe he was overpaid. Even so, I also wonder if Luke had still been beside him how much his play would have been elevated, if he took over TD's role (Phil Snow,- the coaching changes kind of derailed that progression). I guess I never really so enough for me to say Shaq was a Star Player, and I think you have to see that before you pay a guy the way he was paid. I think he was paid based on what Marty and the former staff thought he could be.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Michael G

[Scott12345]

16 minutes ago, Michael G said:

A few ?s:

(1) Would Thomas Davis at his best be worth the contract ST got?

(2) How good would TD at his best be w/o Luke K. beside him? (What if he had to play with Tahir W. beside him instead) Would that guy be worth Shaq's current contract?

(3) If Shaq (or any LB) balled out and was one of the best-rated LB's in the league-would he be worth the contract that Shaq got?

Its hard for me to objectively evaluate how much players are worth. I feel like CMC is worth his contract if he performs as expected and can stay on the field. Teddy B played 5 games at NO and looked good with the group he had around him. That ultimately led to his deal, and he wasn't worth it.

As for Shaq, I think the expectations for him were very high, but I do believe he was overpaid. Even so, I also wonder if Luke had still been beside him how much his play would have been elevated, if he took over TD's role (Phil Snow,- the coaching changes kind of derailed that progression). I guess I never really so enough for me to say Shaq was a Star Player, and I think you have to see that before you pay a guy the way he was paid. I think he was paid based on what Marty and the former staff thought he could be.

 

 

Shaq not close to the player Davis was

hes a solid back up/special teamer at best

and expectations should be high…he was a #1 draft pick 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Scott12345