5 Carolina Panthers players facing an uphill battle at training camp

[run-run-pass-punt]

Grier just doesn't look as if he belongs anywhere near the NFL. Nothing personal against the guy - most of us don't. I just think we'd be better off looking elsewhere for depth at the position. (probably at both spots if we're keeping 3 QBs - I'd rather we just keep 2 though.)

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

That dude was also otherworldly strong. I am not sure Brown is that guy.

Good point though.

Larry Allen strong, probably not. Hell, Larry Allen might be the strongest man in NFL history where pretty much every lineman is straight up freak of nature strong. But Deonte Brown is REALLY strong. Derrick Brown is freakishly strong and there's a video that I can't find right now of Deonte Brown pretty much picking him up and escorting him five yards downfield like he was a child when they were both in college.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, run-run-pass-punt said:

Grier just doesn't look as if he belongs anywhere near the NFL. Nothing personal against the guy - most of us don't. I just think we'd be better off looking elsewhere for depth at the position. (probably at both spots if we're keeping 3 QBs - I'd rather we just keep 2 though.)

Yep. Seems like a great dude. He's just not an NFL talent. It's amazing what he was able to accomplish at WVU. Hats off to that staff based on what I've seen from him outside of that system. When we drafted him, I didn't hate the pick. I didn't particularly like it, but I thought he'd end up being one of those good backup/marginal starter types. Nope. He's terrible by NFL standards. Not NFL starter standards, NFL third stringer standards.

[AU-panther]

6 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Not necessarily. Locker room impact comes into play. Coachability comes into play. If both guys are liabilities and we're talking about pocket lint in terms of cap implications, I'm going with the more coachable guy who is best in the locker room.

At the end of the day, I think there's a decent chance that there's at least one OL on our final roster that comes off the waiver wire when other teams start paring down their rosters.

If they are different in the locker room or more or less coachable then they really aren’t equal. My only point was there are some cap savings to releasing him where others misread the cap sites  and think there is not.

Also saving a million here and a few million there adds up.  It can be the difference between resigning a Shaq instead of a Bradberry.

Also I wouldn’t get your hopes up too much for waiver help.  Decent OT help is rare to find and we have some bodies at guard especially if Christensen gets some reps there.

 

 

 

[LinvilleGorge]

47 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

If they are different in the locker room or more or less coachable then they really aren’t equal. My only point was there are some cap savings to releasing him where others misread the cap sites  and think there is not.

Also saving a million here and a few million there adds up.  It can be the difference between resigning a Shaq instead of a Bradberry.

Also I wouldn’t get your hopes up too much for waiver help.  Decent OT help is rare to find and we have some bodies at guard especially if Christensen gets some reps there.

 

 

 

I don't think we'll need "decent" to upgrade our depth. Simply not atrocious might end up being enough.

[rayzor]

10 hours ago, Rubi said:

Wasn’t Grier a third rounder?

great investment …

Hurney magic.

[MHS831]

Hartsfield is versatile (S, CB, Nickel, ST) and they love him.   I doubt he goes anywhere.  I give him a 85% chance.  Zylstra is a special teams player who is a good possession WR.  I give him a 50% chance.

[AU-panther]

8 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

I think, quite unfortunately, the staff is hyper fixated on versatility to the detriment of actual ability. 

That might be a bit overplayed around here.  

Here is an article where Rhule talks about versatility.  Basically he says your top 5-6 lineman need to do what they do best.  After that you have to look for some versatility.

Honestly that is fairly standard.  Even if a team keeps 9-10 lineman on the roster they might only have 8 active for games days.

After your starting 5 you probably want a swing tackle, a guy that can play T/G and a guy that can play G/C.  Players 9 and 10 might be a guy that you don't expect to have active on game day but you don't want to expose on the practice squad.

For example, lets say our starting 5 is Erving, Elflein, Paradis, Miller, and Moton.  (best guess at this point).

Scott as swing tackle.  Christensen at G/T.  Honestly I'm not sure who can fill in at center, but I find it a bit curious that Elflein was drafted as a center so maybe he moves over and someone else fills in at guard.  Also could he possible move to Center if Paradis isn't resigned?

 

[Scott12345]

12 hours ago, SBBlue said:

As I'm thinking about it, Zylstra could very well beat out Kirkwood and Simon.  Man that WR room is crowded.

2 rookies gonna be on the team,,,Marshall, & Smith makes it too

[kungfoodude]

4 hours ago, AU-panther said:

That might be a bit overplayed around here.  

Here is an article where Rhule talks about versatility.  Basically he says your top 5-6 lineman need to do what they do best.  After that you have to look for some versatility.

Honestly that is fairly standard.  Even if a team keeps 9-10 lineman on the roster they might only have 8 active for games days.

After your starting 5 you probably want a swing tackle, a guy that can play T/G and a guy that can play G/C.  Players 9 and 10 might be a guy that you don't expect to have active on game day but you don't want to expose on the practice squad.

For example, lets say our starting 5 is Erving, Elflein, Paradis, Miller, and Moton.  (best guess at this point).

Scott as swing tackle.  Christensen at G/T.  Honestly I'm not sure who can fill in at center, but I find it a bit curious that Elflein was drafted as a center so maybe he moves over and someone else fills in at guard.  Also could he possible move to Center if Paradis isn't resigned?

 

Your sample starting five includes two backup OL brought in for their supposed versatility. Frankly, Miller is a backup OL, as well. 

That was generally most of my issue with our offseason. We piled up backup OL when we actually needed at least 3 starters.

[AU-panther]

4 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Your sample starting five includes two backup OL brought in for their supposed versatility. Frankly, Miller is a backup OL, as well. 

That was generally most of my issue with our offseason. We piled up backup OL when we actually needed at least 3 starters.

Versatility is coach speak a lot of times, trying to sell a player to fans.

I don’t disagree with you, I’m not overly excited with our additions.  Based on history we gave out some decent contracts to guys who aren’t that regarded.

This idea though that the staff is purposely passing on better players at single positions for more versatile  players that are worse at all the positions is a bit overplayed .

Im sure they had an actual position in mind for Erving and Elfin when they signed them.  I’m not sold on the idea they will be good but that is a different conversation. I will say though that Elflein was a pretty regarded center prospect coming out of college and I’m curious to see how that plays out, I think this is Paradis last year if I’m not mistaken.

Also on game days a lot of teams only have 8  offensive lineman active so you do need versatility. With only 3 back ups for 5 starting spots the math works that way.  Every team has versatile lineman for this reason, Rhule is just making it a talking point and fans are running with it.

I think in reality it’s far more likely that they just signed bad players than some stupid methodology of them only chasing versatility. 

[Scott12345]

Just about any player on those losing teams we have had over the last few years is at risk….and should be

[Scott12345]

20 hours ago, AU-panther said:

could happen, I could also see Moore going to PS.

Sometimes when trying to figure this out it helps to look at contracts and draft positions.  Right or wrong teams do sometimes feel invested in draft picks, especially higher ones.

Locks:

Moton (because he is good)

Erving (larger contract)

Elflein (larger contract)

Paradis (larger contract)

Christensen (higher draft pick by this staff)

Really good chance of making it:

Scott ($730k signing bonus for this year, tells me someone like him)

 

That leaves Little, Moore, Brown, Daley, and Miller for 3-4 spots.

Little - Has some measurables, I think this staff likes measurables that might help him.  He was a higher draft pick, but I think he was a Hurney pick, that might hurt him.  Sometimes new GMS and coaches like to distance themselves from other picks made by earlier people.

Moore - UDFA, seems like a PS candidate.  Would love for him to be our next Norwell, history just tells us that isn't likely.

Brown - Draft pick by current staff, could help, but it was a lower pick.  I think there is a lot of potential there, especially if he gets into shape.  If he does play well in training camp and preseason might be more afraid to put him on practice squad, might get poached.

Daley - Limited snaps last year, showed some potential.  Easy contract to cut.

Miller - Saw a lot of snaps last year.  Easy contract to cut but with all of the new guys and young guys the fact he saw a lot of action last year should help him. 

Right now if I had to guess which they keep, I would probably go with Miller, Brown, and Daley.

Moore to PS and Little cut.  Honestly though none of them have a huge commitment tied to them so it really will come down to how they play in training camp and preseason.

Also I wouldn't get to strict with the 4G and 4T split.  I could see a couple of the guys listed as either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think Daley can be a player…if he can stay on the field

he was pretty good when healthy

[kungfoodude]

35 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

Versatility is coach speak a lot of times, trying to sell a player to fans.

I don’t disagree with you, I’m not overly excited with our additions.  Based on history we gave out some decent contracts to guys who aren’t that regarded.

This idea though that the staff is purposely passing on better players at single positions for more versatile  players that are worse at all the positions is a bit overplayed .

Im sure they had an actual position in mind for Erving and Elfin when they signed them.  I’m not sold on the idea they will be good but that is a different conversation. I will say though that Elflein was a pretty regarded center prospect coming out of college and I’m curious to see how that plays out, I think this is Paradis last year if I’m not mistaken.

Also on game days a lot of teams only have 8  offensive lineman active so you do need versatility. With only 3 back ups for 5 starting spots the math works that way.  Every team has versatile lineman for this reason, Rhule is just making it a talking point and fans are running with it.

I think in reality it’s far more likely that they just signed bad players than some stupid methodology of them only chasing versatility. 

IMO, it's that they believe in their ability to turn these guys into something they likely aren't. Let's be honest, rare are the stories of journeyman backup OL and busts that go from team to team in the NFL and then suddenly become above average players. Hence my general dislike for the Erving and Elflein signings. Had we signed them as backup OL, I'd have completely different feelings but IMO they were signed to start(or at least compete to start). 

I feel similarly about Christensen. He's a guy that looks great when you see his RAS but his film isn't exactly outstanding. To that point, our hopes of him becoming our future LT appear to have dimmed a little. Which, in fairness, the "news" coming from the organization leads us to believe they thought more highly of him as an OG anyway. 

I think they appear to place a very high value on athletic ability and raw potential. I believe that makes a lot of sense if you are a college coach but in the NFL everyone is a great athlete and has potential. That's my general theory on why we make some of the moves that we do(and did). 

But, perhaps they just have the special sauce like Pete Carroll did and can motivate these guys into being champions. We will see in the next few years.