Ryan Ramczyk Contract

[panthers55]

10 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Yea thats the good part in that the first couple years there beneficial cap space, agreed. Then you start paying 20+ million or cut him and take 20+ million in dead space. Very simple- I do agree with paying a very good player at a lesser than average important position top 5 LT money.   

Disagree that RT isn't as important as LT. Watch how many times Burns lines up on the left side this year. Plus who says Moton won't play left tackle. At this point he is worth whatever we pay him. 

[iamhubby1]

14 minutes ago, Basbear said:

 

First, you are massively under valuing both the RT position, and Motons ability to play RT.

 

Second, by the time his contract is up, Moton will have gone from one of the top paid, to one of the not so highly paid.

 

Third, by the time Motons contract is up, we will have 4 more years to fill out the rest of the line. By then, we should be in a position to let Moton walk.

 

Fourthly, if you want to compete, you need a good Oline. And right now, that starts with Moton.

 

Lastly, there are like 3 people that are in your camp. I wonder why there are so many who disagree with you? Maybe cuz you are wrong on this one.

[Basbear]

18 hours ago, stbugs said:

I’m not sure if you clicked on the link I sent you but if you look at the screenshots below the cap space is $47M and they have the $13M cap hits for Paradis and Reddick right there. They even have them highlighted since as you said they are from voidable years meaning that they are still on the team so it’s not actually dead cap yet. I understand what you are trying to say but you aren’t getting that it’s already in there and as you can see from one of the $0 rows, they do not have any 2021 rollover estimated because it’s not in stone yet. Again, with the rollover amd Thomas/Shaq, we could have almost $70M in cap space in 2022. Since the only FAs are Moton, Donte, Reddick and Anderson, it’s easy to afford Moton and Donte and let the other two go. If Reddick is cheap and they want to, we could keep him as well. Your guess of $15-20M for him seems to now be gone due to your 700 IQ, so what’s the big deal for 2022? You want to pay DJ $20M+ and pay $15M for Anderson with Marshall and Smith and not have 1 good tackle? You’re a bit all over the place on this as I’ve already laid out that Moore, Darnold and Burns are cheap until 2023 or 2024 and Donte won’t be expensive (watch him in drills vs Horn, big difference). We don’t need Reddick or Anderson.

I don’t know why you are even asking me to do it again. I’ve said every post that I want to extend Moton. So, again, I 150% want to sign Moton and I don’t think it will be $20M+. I’d also bet $18M since Ramzcyk has 1 award and Moton has none. It’s funny that I’m a world where there’s been two in a row drafts with tons of solid WRs (college ranks have been stacked lately) that you have no doubt about paying Moore $20M+. Moore hasn’t won a single award. He’s never had 1200 yards and in 3 years has 10 total TDs. There have been a lot more recent articles with Moton ranked higher in tackles than Moore in WRs. No idea why you are so hung up on Moton being just OK. We have 3 current players that we need to extend in 2022, 2023 or 2024 and that is Moton, Moore and Burns. We can tag Chinn easily in 2024 and Brown will have his 5th year. We should have no problem keeping them all if we continue to draft well so we don’t need expensive vets.

I thought the charge should be listed under "dead cap" since both are free agents and not on the roster. They could re-sign but the number would be different. Mis-understanding unless the numbers add up correctly on the left.

Youre hung up on those numbers given to panther FAs, rough estimate after great years for all with the given super increase in cap via TV money. Even if theres 200 million in cap space, I totally disagree with paying a very good RT top 5 LT money, NO WAY! You and most others feel different, and you gave a very good effort...a real Moton performance!! But at last my mind hasnt changed, too set in my beliefs. They have served me very well and been proven over history. 

Right about Moore and his weak TDs, no defensive except blaming others(QBs, OCs). Just to add TDs and WRs are a.....how do I say....they dont go hand in hand. Juilo Jones(as others) have had super low TDs for a few years in elite careers. That field is smaller closer to goal-line less room to work for type of WR that Moore is. For sure tho, TDs number are weak, but hes the only WR to reach 1,200 scrimmage yards in each of the last 2 seasons. Thats very impressive feat, given all the other elite WRs. Shame its harder to compare to RT, since they dont have "stats". You maybe right about me over-valuing the WR, there are more in draft the last couple years. League has a good, not perfect method to show value, they pay WR nearly 2x the average of RTs it feels like. 

Wraping this up, where do you have RT on your value chart for the 22 positions? Say all are good players, all equal level of talent/age etc. Rough number is fine, theres too many factors, try not to over think it. 

[iamhubby1]

15 minutes ago, Basbear said:

I thought the charge should be listed under "dead cap" since both are free agents and not on the roster. They could re-sign but the number would be different. Mis-understanding unless the numbers add up correctly on the left.

Youre hung up on those numbers given to panther FAs, rough estimate after great years for all with the given super increase in cap via TV money. Even if theres 200 million in cap space, I totally disagree with paying a very good RT top 5 LT money, NO WAY! You and most others feel different, and you gave a very good effort...a real Moton performance!! But at last my mind hasnt changed, too set in my beliefs. They have served me very well and been proven over history. 

Right about Moore and his weak TDs, no defensive except blaming others(QBs, OCs). Just to add TDs and WRs are a.....how do I say....they dont go hand in hand. Juilo Jones(as others) have had super low TDs for a few years in elite careers. That field is smaller closer to goal-line less room to work for type of WR that Moore is. For sure tho, TDs number are weak, but hes the only WR to reach 1,200 scrimmage yards in each of the last 2 seasons. Thats very impressive feat, given all the other elite WRs. Shame its harder to compare to RT, since they dont have "stats". You maybe right about me over-valuing the WR, there are more in draft the last couple years. League has a good, not perfect method to show value, they pay WR nearly 2x the average of RTs it feels like. 

Wraping this up, where do you have RT on your value chart for the 22 positions? Say all are good players, all equal level of talent/age etc.

Rough number is fine, theres too many factors, try not to over think it. 

 

Where do you stand on the importance of the Oline to a football team? Just give us a rough guess. Try not to overthink it. lol

 

You are hung up on this whole "I'm not paying a top RT, top LT money." We are going to pay a very good T, very good money. And it will not stop us from competing.

 

Maybe in the future we will have more talent than money. But at this point in time. We have the resources to take care of Moton. And it is the right thing to do.

 

After all these years of paying aging vets top money. You'd think folks would appreciate a young talent getting paid while he is still in his prime.

 

I'm done. But by all means continue on, as it is more fun than chores.
 

Edited July 2, 2021 by iamhubby1

[Basbear]

45 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

First, you are massively under valuing both the RT position, and Motons ability to play RT.

 

Second, by the time his contract is up, Moton will have gone from one of the top paid, to one of the not so highly paid.

 

Third, by the time Motons contract is up, we will have 4 more years to fill out the rest of the line. By then, we should be in a position to let Moton walk.

 

Fourthly, if you want to compete, you need a good Oline. And right now, that starts with Moton.

 

Lastly, there are like 3 people that are in your camp. I wonder why there are so many who disagree with you? Maybe cuz you are wrong on this one.

It does feel like I am undervaluing the RT, but you have to make hard choices since its impossible to pay all 25 spots top money. OL is important, very much. I have LT and C as wayyyy more valuable and depending on the system RG or LG maybe more as well. In recent years I have greatly changed my OG value, as has the NFL given the contracts as well. Past years I wouldnt have touched a OG before the mid-3rd at best, NFL changed and I did too. RT has sorta replaced OG in "value" terms for me. 

The OL needs to be rebuilt with or without Moton. IF Moton is getting 20+ mill per year for RT, that will make harder on filling other spots including the other 4 OLmen. 

3 people on my side, no big deal. Popular opinions well....you know.(I wonder whats the most popular song is currently?) Lets just say at least its not chuck agreeing with me and MHS is. I know this is unpopular, very unpopular line of thinking with a very good player such as Moton. But that ends when your talking top 5 OL money for a non-elite Moton playing a lesser valued spot.  

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Basbear

[Basbear]

4 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

Where do you stand on the importance of the Oline to a football team? Just give us a rough guess. Try not to overthink it. lol

 

You are hung up on this whole "I'm not paying a top RT, top LT money." We are going to pay a very good T, very good money. And it will not stop us from competing.

 

Maybe in the future we will have more talent than money. But at this point in time. We have the resources to take care of Moton. And it is the right thing to do.

 

After all these years of paying aging vets top money. You'd think folks would appreciate a young talent getting paid while he is still in his prime.

 

I'm done. But by all means continue on, as it is more fun than chores.
 

Very high, RT maybe the least out of the 5. Yes I am hung up on not paying a very good player elite/top 5 money form another spot, yes......people acting like thats crazy, LOLolol! I answered most in my other reply. Buy a projector and hook up voice chat while youre dusting and washing dishes! I got work/chores to do as well before the weekend as well, lucky most are all done!

[iamhubby1]

9 minutes ago, Basbear said:

It does feel like I am undervaluing the RT, but you have to make hard choices since its impossible to pay all 25 spots top money. OL is important, very much. I have LT and C as wayyyy more valuable and depending on the system RG or LG maybe more as well. In recent years I have greatly changed my OG value, as has the NFL given the contracts as well. Past years I wouldnt have touched a OG before the mid-3rd at best, NFL changed and I did too. RT has sorta replaced OG in "value" terms for me. 

The OL needs to be rebuilt with or without Moton. IF Moton is getting 20+ mill per year for RT, that will make harder on filling other spots including the other 4 OLmen. 

3 people on my side, no big deal. Popular opinions well....you know.(I wonder what the most popular song is currently?) Lets just say at least its not chuck agreeing with and MHS is. I know this is unpopular, very unpopular line of thinking with a very good player such as Moton. But that ends when your talking top 5 OL money for a non-elite Moton playing a lesser valued spot.  

 

 

I'm sorry, but if you truly believe that RT is the lowest value position on the line. I'm done.

Edited July 2, 2021 by iamhubby1

[Basbear]

2 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

You are worried about future contracts, when you have a talented player, in his prime, needing one now. You can call is whatever you  want. But the hard choice is to keep your talent.

 

Burns, Brown, Moore, and Chinn are only 4 players. We are not trying to pay 25 guys. Well, if Sam balls out, that makes 5.

 

You draft well, and you continue to churn the roster. Giving you the opportunity to pay your top talent. Yes, you will lose some guys. Just make sure it is the right guys, and you are going to be akay.

What if Moton would only sign for 25 million per with 60% guaranteed? Say another team will give that to him if panthers dont as well. You still agree? Just lines are a thing and Moton/agent/crew wanting top 5 OL to play a lesser valued spot, thats too much for my taste. At what point you is yours?

Roster turn-over is around 40% each year, I think the panthers drafted some Moton insurance with brady christensen.... I mean say christ is a ok RT, just average, is Moton worth 18x the cost? This gos back to the Norman deal. I just wanted to tag Norman and that be it, no long term deal for a older zone CB cause they have similar value to RT....... In steps Bradberry whom played decent for a rookie, so was Norman 15x the player Bradberry was? In my book nope, BIG nope. Panthers/gman goal-line fumbled this whole deal tho, still some comparisons can be made to Motons current deal. I was right there too......

[Basbear]

28 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

I'm sorry, but if you truly believe that RT is the lowest value position on the line. I'm done.

Look at this my friend. Before, know this Lane Johnson was going to play LT at some point.  My eyes maybe off....but I see LOTS more OGs in the top 20 than RTs.....plus Ram is new. So quick recap- Lane signed with intentions of playing LT and Ram just signed days ago....... Only two RTs by name in the top 20 and I just gave reasons for each. Again Im the crazy one for not wanting to over-pay a very good RT. Panthers over paided at RB and LB......RT is about the same value too, might as well go full tard.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/offensive-line/limit-100/

Edited July 2, 2021 by Basbear

[Basbear]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Disagree that RT isn't as important as LT. Watch how many times Burns lines up on the left side this year. Plus who says Moton won't play left tackle. At this point he is worth whatever we pay him. 

Post in reply to hubby=

Look at this my friend. Before, know this Lane Johnson was going to play LT at some point.  My eyes maybe off....but I see LOTS more OGs in the top 20 than RTs.....plus Ram is new. So quick recap- Lane signed with intentions of playing LT and Ram just signed days ago....... Only two RTs by name in the top 20 and I just gave reasons for each. Again Im the crazy one for not wanting to over-pay a very good RT. Panthers over paided at RB and LB......RT is about the same value too, might as well go full tard.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/offensive-line/limit-100/

 

This backs up what Ive been stating, league doesnt value RT as LT. Only if you are in the NFC west or some other insane division where its loaded at LDE. That was the reason why the raiders signed Trent Brown to a insane contract to play RT. It didnt work out but I understood why playing against Millers, Bosa, hali etc. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Basbear

[iamhubby1]

14 minutes ago, Basbear said:

Look at this my friend. Before, know this Lane Johnson was going to play LT at some point.  My eyes maybe off....but I see LOTS more OGs in the top 20 than RTs.....plus Ram is new. So quick recap- Lane signed with intentions of playing LT and Ram just signed days ago....... Only two RTs by name in the top 20 and I just gave reasons for each. Again Im the crazy one for not wanting to over-pay a very good RT. Panthers over paided at RB and LB......RT is about the same value too, might as well go full tard.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/offensive-line/limit-100/

 

1. You are freaking out over a contract that has yet to be signed. 

 

2. Moton is one of the best Tackles in the league. And you are undervaluing him immensely just to...I dont know.

 

3. This is a new Panthers Regime. You are both blaming them over past deeds, and then using that to fret over the future.

 

4. Don't pay Moton. Undervalue his talent. It's your prerogative. 

[panthers55]

1 minute ago, Basbear said:

Post in reply to hubby=

Look at this my friend. Before, know this Lane Johnson was going to play LT at some point.  My eyes maybe off....but I see LOTS more OGs in the top 20 than RTs.....plus Ram is new. So quick recap- Lane signed with intentions of playing LT and Ram just signed days ago....... Only two RTs by name in the top 20 and I just gave reasons for each. Again Im the crazy one for not wanting to over-pay a very good RT. Panthers over paided at RB and LB......RT is about the same value too, might as well go full tard.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/contracts/sort-value/offensive-line/limit-100/

 

This backs up what Ive been stating, league doesnt value RT as LT. Only if you are in the NFC west or some other insane division where is loaded at LDE. That was the reason why the raiders signed Trent Brown to a insane contract to play RT, it didnt work out but I understood why playing against Millers, Bosa, hali etc. 

Rankings are subjective and likely influenced by the dominant old idea that left tackles are more valuable and therefore automatically better if they played at the same level as a right tackle since the left side is harder and takes more skill.  Can I get an Amen. 

And executives aren't going to admit that isn't true since that would mean they have to pay the right tackle as much as the left tackle. It behooves them to pay less as well. 

But the reality is that there are a number of great pass rushers who rush from the right side and that has been clearly shown. Plus many pass rushers will change sides based on who they think they best match up against or even position on the field. So by continuing this outdated thinking you just show you are not up to speed  on the realities of the league. But you are not alone. A lot of folks think the same way. I hope Moton does play left tackle and at a high level. That will not only show he was worth every penny but that it isn't that hard to shift from the right to the left. Gross did it with no problem and he didn't have the athleticism that Moton does. Once again proving that great tackles are great no.matter where they line up which is my contention

[Basbear]

2 minutes ago, stbugs said:

They had Boston listed in regular cap until 6/1 and then he went to dead cap. They are counting Reddick and Paradis fully in the normal cap because they are on the team. I believe until they are no longer on the team it’s not considered dead cap because technically these years haven’t voided yet. It’s like when players have a $5M salary and a $7M cap hit. It’s not technically dead cap but that $2M is basically the same just not labeled as dead cap because the player is still on the team. We really are in good shape in 2022. If we cut Shaq (probably cheaper to keep Reddick), Thomas and don’t waste anymore to rollover, having $70M in space is easy. I don’t see how hard it will be to sign Moton, Donte and maybe Reddick and then in 2023 extend Moore and maybe Darnold and then in 2024 extend/tag Burns/Chinn (Brown’s 5th year).

All that said, I want Moore extended just using him as an example. Clearly I value Moton and RT more than you, but it’s funny how people instantly want to pay Moore and not Moton when our WR corps is way stronger than our tackles. We’ve got Moton, bottom tier vets and a rookie ranked higher by us as a G. Our potential T cupboard is barren after Moton which means we really need to pay him.

As far as positions, I’d rank them like this (assuming 4-3): QB >>>>>>>> DE, T, DT, C, CMC/Kamara type, WR, CB and honestly the rest (TEs, Gs, regular RBs, Ss and LBs) is a toss up. The keys are pass rush, preventing pass rush and then receiving/preventing receptions. If you watch Burns highlights, he lines up on both sides so I put RT right behind LT only due to blindside. I think with one solid tackle and a good scheme you can protect the other side with TE/RB help. Each of those “rest” positions can have great players that make impacts like a Kelce but they aren’t marquee positions.

Also, one thing you are still not seeing is that Moton is our only expensive OL in 2022. If we are going to upgrade LT, it’s either Christensen surprising or it’s our 2022 1st rounder. There are no other solid Ts on the roster just stop gaps. That means you can easily afford Moton. 

Its an different way to label the money/cap. 47 is a little more than I thought if those are factored in and not twice like I was trying to correct them. Shaq I didnt want to sign, but they did after Luke told them "Im retiring"...I still like Shaq just not at the contract/price hes getting. Im sure cutting him will be talked about in the off-season.....just at some point the dead money has to stop(the huge type).

Yea WR is in much better hands than OL, that hurts my preferring Moore >> Moton. I just dont want to lose Moore, Burns or choosen-one Darnold by giving 20+ for Moton to play RT. No question OL needs more talent and losing Moton does not help. Just it crosses the line wanting 20+ million, tough choice to make. You do value RT much higher than I do. My placement in the 13th area form 22 ranked positions.. Just only OL its about 4th out of 5 with LT and C being very far ahead.   

OL is mess for 2022 if the rookies dont become at least decent. Honestly I super worried about C, cause no faith in Elf at all. While not the most valued, C is the most important. 

[Basbear]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Rankings are subjective and likely influenced by the dominant old idea that left tackles are more valuable and therefore automatically better if they played at the same level as a right tackle since the left side is harder and takes more skill.  Can I get an Amen. 

And executives aren't going to admit that isn't true since that would mean they have to pay the right tackle as much as the left tackle. It behooves them to pay less as well. 

But the reality is that there are a number of great pass rushers who rush from the right side and that has been clearly shown. Plus many pass rushers will change sides based on who they think they best match up against or even position on the field. So by continuing this outdated thinking you just show you are not up to speed  on the realities of the league. But you are not alone. A lot of folks think the same way. I hope Moton does play left tackle and at a high level. That will not only show he was worth every penny but that it isn't that hard to shift from the right to the left. Gross did it with no problem and he didn't have the athleticism that Moton does. Once again proving that great tackles are great no.matter where they line up which is my contention

DCs have moved around pass rushers much more in recent years. They are attacking weakness, that has not charge. If the RT has trouble with speed rushers, put Burns there after a different DE worn him down.  

Most QBs are right handed, that means the blind-side is still protected by LT. 

 

League's cap has nearly increase the cap 2x since 2007, teams are taking the time to pay RT while dropping that added space on OGs. I try to stay with the times and even try to predict the future. I do feel the league is wrong about how they value C and TE, Ive said that for years. Again the puzzle is 53 spots and 200 million to give. SOME positions are going to get shorted compared to others. League and me agreed that RT is not as valued as LT and most OGs.

I even go to say C has more value. All the first comments about DC moving pass rushers more, the C has to make adjusts in seconds.... I give the credit to my Favoite panther OC Dan Henning for stating many years ago "C is the most important/valued OL spot, NOT LT" I still place LT above, but hes somewhat right. 

We do not have all the facts about Moton and him not playing LT. I could only guess, still that is where you get 20+. Id be fine with that even if he was a very good LT, but hes not and we do not know why.