Darnold's QBR was higher than Tannehill's

[Michael G]

59 minutes ago, jayboogieman said:

I'll disagree. Cam had some really good years as a Panther, but he never really improved on things he needed to improve on. He always had a tough time throwing with touch, short passes, and setting his feet while here. Part of that is on him. The rest is on the Panthers for not helping him improve those things or providing a good Oline.

I was not Cam's biggest fan. I liked Jake because of his story (backup-stepping in and playing well) and their style's and demeanors just seemed so different.

That said: I Think Cam did try to change, especially after he was hurt. He started out under N. Turner practicing a shorter more compact motion that looked pretty good for awhile and his completion rate went way up, but consistent pressure late in the season led to further injury and regression to old habits. 

Cam worked hard, was super talented, just not really helped by his coaching and the offense that was put together around him (Who was brought after Steve left to help at WR? Benjamin?). Olsen came over that same year Cam was drafted but .......what about the 8 or 9 other years?

Edited June 8, 2021 by Michael G

[jayboogieman]

3 minutes ago, frankw said:

 

 

That's a good movie.

[jayboogieman]

1 minute ago, Michael G said:

I was not Cam's biggest fan. I liked Jake because of his story (backup-stepping in and playing well) and their style's and demeanors just seemed so different.

That said: I Think Cam did try to change, especially after he was hurt. He started out under N. Turner practicing a shorter more compact motion that looked pretty good for awhile and his completion rate went way up, but consistent pressure late in the season led to further injury and regression to old habits. 

Cam worked hard, was super talented, just not really helped buy his coaching and the offense that was put together around him (Who was brought after Steve left to help at WR? Benjamin?). Olsen came over that same year but .......what about the 8 or 9 other years?

As I said, it wasn't all on Cam. Some of his issues were the team's fault.

[Madwolf]

17 hours ago, SBBlue said:

Ok.  Since you won't post years, I'm assuming you are using years that Tannehill wasn't under Gase.

The premise of the post was to compare GASE years of the two QBs.

Even then, it's worse for Darnold.

He only beats Tannehill one year, and it's in a year where statistically Tannehill was far and away the better QB. Tannelhill ends up with a better Rating (the to 138.00) and a lower QBR with better stats.

And I did specify what years.

If we use your trick of combining the %s and dividing by 3 it works out in Darnold's favor, but that's not how you get a composite QBR for those 3 years. You'd need to compile the stats and calculate the QBRs, not combine the %s and divide by 3.

[bigdavis]

16 hours ago, jayboogieman said:

What lengthy list of failed quarterbacks with potential?

Frank Reich? 10 year vet journeyman when he signed with the team.

Kerry Collins? Drafted by the Panthers in the first round. He should be on your list.

Steve Beuerlein? 9 year vet journeyman when he signed with the team. Pressed into the starting role when Collins quit.

Chris Weinke? Fourth round older rookie(26) drafted by the Panthers. Only won 2 games. Didn't have much potential.

Matt Lytle? Was a third string backup.

Dameyune Craig? Undrafted rookie that signed with Carolina. Was never more than a backup in the NFL.

Rodney Peete? Was a 37 year old journeyman when he signed with Carolina.

Randy Fasani? Fifth rounder drafted by the Panthers. Only played 4 games.

Jake Delhomme? 7 year backup when he signed with the Panthers.

Vinny Testaverde? Was signed out of retirement.

David Carr? Was a 5 year vet when he signed with the Panthers to be a backup. He was done mentally at this point.

Matt Moore? Undrafted rookie claimed off waviers by Carolina to be a third string backup.

Brian St Pierre? Another vet backup journeyman.

Cam Newton? He should be on your list. Was really good, but never quite put it all together.

Derek Anderson? Once again, a vet journeyman.

Taylor Heinicke? Undrafted 3 year vet claimed off waivers to be a third string backup.

Kyle Allen? Undrafted rookie signed by the Panthers to be a backup after Cam's season ended.

Will Grier? He can make your list. He was a third round draft pick.

Teddy Bridgewater? Six year vet signed to be Cam's replacement.

PJ Walker? 4 year undrafted backup.

Sam Darnold? He makes your list too. 3 year former first round pick. The biggest worry with Darnold should be if he is done mentally or not like Carr was.

That is not a lengthy list nor one filled with guys that had potential. Most were vet journeymen that were little more than backups or guys that were just washed up.

That's a nice long list, but how could you omit Pickles??

Talk about failed potential!  His go-to play was a short sideline throwaway to the cheerleaders.

[SBBlue]

2 minutes ago, Madwolf said:

He only beats Tannehill one year,

Yes and awesome Tannehill only beat sucky Darnold one year. 

Quote

and it's in a year where statistically Tannehill was far and away the better QB. Tannelhill ends up with a better Rating (the to 138.00) and a lower QBR with better stats.

I was expecting somebody to come in and say "he was better than his QBR".  People use a stat until it doesn't support their position and then want to switch stats.  Tannehill's  last year with Gase  had  less than 2000 yards and a 33.2 QBR which resulted in him being traded for a 4th and change, and the coach being let go.     He wasn't "far and away" better.

Quote

If we use your trick of combining the %s and dividing by 3 it works out in Darnold's favor, but that's not how you get a composite QBR for those 3 years. You'd need to compile the stats and calculate the QBRs, not combine the %s and divide by 3.

This is an excellent point.   To properly calculate the QBR  would be to sum the stats over the time period and plug them in.   

So lets just look at the raw QBRs:

Tannehill/Gase QBRs   45.6  48.6  33.2  

Darold's/Gase  QBRs             45.6  40.1 

Darnolds Rookie  QBR  45.9

I included Darnold's rookie year because its the only other QBR we have for him to make  both 3 years, ignore if you want.

Now you can look at these numbers and try to say Tannehill was "far and away" the better quarterback.  It's just not supported by the numbers.

Depending on which years you choose to compare, Darnold did better.

 

[Madwolf]

8 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

Yes and awesome Tannehill only beat sucky Darnold one year. 

I was expecting somebody to come in and say "he was better than his QBR".  People use a stat until it doesn't support their position and then want to switch stats.  Tannehill's  last year with Gase  had  less than 2000 yards and a 33.2 QBR which resulted in him being traded for a 4th and change, and the coach being let go.     He wasn't "far and away" better.

This is an excellent point.   To properly calculate the QBR  would be to sum the stats over the time period and plug them in.   

So lets just look at the raw QBRs:

Tannehill/Gase QBRs   45.6  48.6  33.2  

Darold's/Gase  QBRs             45.6  40.1 

Darnolds Rookie  QBR  45.9

I included Darnold's rookie year because its the only other QBR we have for him to make  both 3 years, ignore if you want.

Now you can look at these numbers and try to say Tannehill was "far and away" the better quarterback.  It's just not supported by the numbers.

Depending on which years you choose to compare, Darnold did better.

 

Your numbers are wrong.

Gase wasn't the coach in 2015, he was introduced as the head coach of the Miami Dolphins in January 2016.

And you cannot just add the QBRs and divide, it doesn't work like that.

In 2018 the QBs looked like

Yards: 1,979 vs 2,865 (274 vs 414 attempts) (7.2 ypa vs 6.9)

Completion %: 64.2 vs 57.7

TDs: 17 vs 17

INTs: 9 vs 15

Rating: 92.7 vs 77.6

QBR: 33.2 vs 45.9

 

Who do you want as Quarterback based on those numbers?

I'm not attacking Darnold here, I'm just saying the QBR is the outlier, and we shouldn't loft huge expectations on Darnold because we're using numbers to lie about each QBs time under Gase.

 

[kungfoodude]

31 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

Depending on which years you choose to compare, Darnold did better.

 

 

 

Furthermore, you are not calculating QBR correctly. You can't just "add them up and divide by X." That is not how QB Rating or QBR works.

Edited June 8, 2021 by kungfoodude

[jayboogieman]

1 hour ago, bigdavis said:

That's a nice long list, but how could you omit Pickles??

Talk about failed potential!  His go-to play was a short sideline throwaway to the cheerleaders.

lol

That season caused traumatic memory loss. Or maybe it was booze.

[iamhubby1]

11 hours ago, Snake said:

Honestly I think we need another draft and FA to really have a shot. I mean in a perfect world everything works out and we make it but we are still pretty thin at OL and CB. Even after we spent two draft picks at CB. Darnald I feel will have his growing pains. I mean even Tom Brady had growing pains learning a new system. It won't be plug in play like Teddy was. Darnald will be in a entire different system.

 

As to CB. We have 3 quality starters. and 2 more that were here last year. I wouldn't call that thin.

 

As for the line. We added 5 guys that may push for significant playing time. There is a reasonable chance our line is improved over last year.

 

As to Sam. He is smart and talented. Brady appears to be a competent coach. Maybe, just maybe Sam, as a 3yr vet, gets it. 

 

So, for me, there is some optimism to be gleaned from this.

 

4 hours ago, jayboogieman said:

One winning season with Steve, three with Jake, and three with Cam. Despite individual records, that is more bad than good since QB is such a huge part of the NFL.

 

You said bad QB play. Now you are adding qualifiers. I think the bad, has clouded your memory of the good.

 

Jake gad 5 good years before Tommy Jone took him.

Steve had 5 good years.

Cam had 6 before the wheels started falling off.

 

That is still 16 years of good QB play.

 

[Snake]

6 minutes ago, iamhubby1 said:

 

As to CB. We have 3 quality starters. and 2 more that were here last year. I wouldn't call that thin.

 

As for the line. We added 5 guys that may push for significant playing time. There is a reasonable chance our line is improved over last year.

 

As to Sam. He is smart and talented. Brady appears to be a competent coach. Maybe, just maybe Sam, as a 3yr vet, gets it. 

 

So, for me, there is some optimism to be gleaned from this.

 

 

You said bad QB play. Now you are adding qualifiers. I think the bad, has clouded your memory of the good.

 

Jake gad 5 good years before Tommy Jone took him.

Steve had 5 good years.

Cam had 6 before the wheels started falling off.

 

That is still 16 years of good QB play.

 

I would say we have one quality starter and he's a rookie. 

[SBBlue]

35 minutes ago, Madwolf said:

Who do you want as Quarterback based on those numbers?

Neither.  They both suck..and that's the point. 

Tannehill wasn't a far and away better quarterback in 2018.    He just wasn't.    He was traded for a 4th and change.  He averaged 180 yards a game.  

Your question should be, why was Tannehils QBR the WORST IN THE LEAGUE? 

Is it because QBR takes into account  fumbles, penalties, difficulty of opposition, garbage time....

 

 

[Madwolf]

7 minutes ago, Snake said:

I would say we have one quality starter and he's a rookie. 

I'd agree there. I'm fairly convinced Horn is going to be a stud, but outside of that I think the jury is out on the rest of the CBs. I think we'll get a serviceable #2 between Jackson and Bouye, but I'm not as comfortable saying that we'll have both a #2 and a Nickle that I'd be comfortable starting against most of the teams we'll see this year.

[Madwolf]

3 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

Neither.  They both suck..and that's the point. 

Tannehill wasn't a far and away better quarterback in 2018.    He just wasn't.    He was traded for a 4th and change.  He averaged 180 yards a game.  

Your question should be, why was Tannehils QBR the WORST IN THE LEAGUE? 

Is it because QBR takes into account  fumbles, penalties, difficulty of opposition, garbage time....

 

 

I'll take the QB with better stats and win loss record with the worst QBR in the league over the guy with worst stats and a better QBR with a worse win loss record.

Between the two, that year, Tannehill is the clear winner. He protected the ball, and did far more on far less attempts than Darnold did.