Christensen’s grade per the Panthers

[SBBlue]

27 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I understand the thought process but I don't know that I agree that high caliber players that aren't as versatile are less valuable than lower caliber players that are more versatile. If I have an elite LT that can play LT at an elite level, RT at an average level and basically nowhere else, I would rather have that than a LT that is average, a good OG and an average RT. 

I think the versatility is very valuable for your depth guys because it helps you plug in when starters get injured. But, we signed a guy like Eflein who has played a bunch of positions in the NFL but never been more than average at them, I don't view that as particularly more valuable than just simply getting a good LG or RG.

I don't really understand the Christensen pick because nothing about him strikes me as being able to be much more than an average LT in the NFL. However, if he proves to be an elite/very good player at another position, that is all that matters.

I think in some coaches' minds, offensive line doesn't need stars, it needs more versatility because there are just so many injuries.  Its not just us, offensive lines across the league are riddled with injuries.  I think lack of injuries contributed to our 15-1 season.

[kungfoodude]

Just now, SBBlue said:

I think in some coaches' minds, offensive line doesn't need stars, it needs more versatility because there are just so many injuries.  Its not just us, offensive lines across the league are riddled with injuries.  I think lack of injuries contributed to our 15-1 season.

I don't disagree with the thought process but you ultimately need players that can play at a high level consistently. Versatility doesn't trump that. If you have someone who could supposedly play at a high level at multiple positions like Slater, fine. IF he is able to do that. If not, wouldn't you rather have Quentin Nelson?

[hepcat]

7 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That is sort of why some of the long term Panthers fans are taking a skeptical stance on the franchise at the moment. In 27 years we have seen a lot of different thought processes come through that front office and coach on the field. Very few of them have netted more than mediocre to bad results. Like @Sgt Schultz said yesterday, there is a lot of Stockholm Syndrome built into the long tenured fans. 

For every positive aspect of Rhule, his staff and our new GM there are also these obvious red flags. Like the outside the box drafting. It isn't like we haven't seen that before, it's just that it didn't work. Frankly, when we have eschewed conventional wisdom previously, the results have been poor. 

I am taking a wait and see approach with a healthy sense of skepticism. I want to believe in these guys, they have a lot of the attitudes we have been begging for as fans. I just want to see some signs that we finally have the makings of stability and sustained success and not yet another flash in the pan college coach that just couldn't make the leap. 

I think 2021 is going to go a long way towards making fan believe or sowing doubt and mistrust. 

Stockholm syndrome is an interesting way of putting it. I just can’t shake the feeling that nothing the Panthers did this offseason is going to matter if Darnold is turning the ball over 2-3 times a game. They needed to get a plan B behind him. 

[rayzor]

20 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That is sort of why some of the long term Panthers fans are taking a skeptical stance on the franchise at the moment. In 27 years we have seen a lot of different thought processes come through that front office and coach on the field. Very few of them have netted more than mediocre to bad results. Like @Sgt Schultz said yesterday, there is a lot of Stockholm Syndrome built into the long tenured fans. 

For every positive aspect of Rhule, his staff and our new GM there are also these obvious red flags. Like the outside the box drafting. It isn't like we haven't seen that before, it's just that it didn't work. Frankly, when we have eschewed conventional wisdom previously, the results have been poor. 

I am taking a wait and see approach with a healthy sense of skepticism. I want to believe in these guys, they have a lot of the attitudes we have been begging for as fans. I just want to see some signs that we finally have the makings of stability and sustained success and not yet another flash in the pan college coach that just couldn't make the leap. 

I think 2021 is going to go a long way towards making fan believe or sowing doubt and mistrust. 

For me it's been a breathe of fresh air. Both Rhule and Fitt fit the young, progressive, and analytical model I've been dreaming about for well over a decade.

I'm all in because I'm seeing the things I was hoping I'd see. They've been unpredictable in a lot of ways which has been invigorating. 

This is a panthers team being put together and run totally different than anything we've seen before. 

I'm not expecting immediate be success. What I expect is a leadership that is constantly working to improve what they do rather than hold on like a pit bull to some ancient style of doing things.

A big thing for me is they aren't afraid to recognize and move on from mistakes and in that they instantly become better than anything we've had before.

[SBBlue]

Just now, kungfoodude said:

I don't disagree with the thought process but you ultimately need players that can play at a high level consistently. Versatility doesn't trump that. If you have someone who could supposedly play at a high level at multiple positions like Slater, fine. IF he is able to do that. If not, wouldn't you rather have Quentin Nelson?

Of course I would.   That said, Christensen had the lowest pressure rate in the nation .8%.  His RAS was awesome.  He's athletic and he's got the tape  Why wasn't he the number 1 OT?

Competition, wingspan, age.

Zack Wilson faced the same competition, drafted 3 overall.  

So wingspan and age?  

I think they tried to moneyball this and thought they have a diamond in the rough in Christensen, so they could trade down to get Marshal, Tremble, and co. 

I think Tepper agrees with you with the value in the position...he seemed really happy to get Christiansen.  

[SBBlue]

32 minutes ago, hepcat said:

Stockholm syndrome is an interesting way of putting it. I just can’t shake the feeling that nothing the Panthers did this offseason is going to matter if Darnold is turning the ball over 2-3 times a game. They needed to get a plan B behind him. 

I assume 2-3 times a game is to exaggerate the point.  He didn't do that with the jets while running for his life.   His interceptions were nowhere near 2 a game.  That's Jameis Winston.

Edited May 29, 2021 by SBBlue

[OldhamA]

52 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

That is sort of why some of the long term Panthers fans are taking a skeptical stance on the franchise at the moment. In 27 years we have seen a lot of different thought processes come through that front office and coach on the field. Very few of them have netted more than mediocre to bad results. Like @Sgt Schultz said yesterday, there is a lot of Stockholm Syndrome built into the long tenured fans. 

For every positive aspect of Rhule, his staff and our new GM there are also these obvious red flags. Like the outside the box drafting. It isn't like we haven't seen that before, it's just that it didn't work. Frankly, when we have eschewed conventional wisdom previously, the results have been poor. 

I am taking a wait and see approach with a healthy sense of skepticism. I want to believe in these guys, they have a lot of the attitudes we have been begging for as fans. I just want to see some signs that we finally have the makings of stability and sustained success and not yet another flash in the pan college coach that just couldn't make the leap. 

I think 2021 is going to go a long way towards making fan believe or sowing doubt and mistrust. 

He rebuilt two College programmes from the ground up. He's not a flash in the pan coach. 

If anything there's nothing 'outside the box' about our drafting under Rhule - it's the exact opposite. He's emphasizing coachable athletes. 

[OldhamA]

18 minutes ago, SBBlue said:

Of course I would.   That said, Christensen had the lowest pressure rate in the nation .8%.  His RAS was awesome.  He's athletic and he's got the tape  Why wasn't he the number 1 OT?

Competition, wingspan, age.

Zack Wilson faced the same competition, drafted 3 overall.  

So wingspan and age?  

I think they tried to moneyball this and thought they have a diamond in the rough in Christensen, so they could trade down to get Marshal, Tremble, and co. 

I think Tepper agrees with you with the value in the position...he seemed really happy to get Christiansen.  

I think Tepper was happy to get Christensen because he'd sat in the War Room and seen a whole host of OLineman go off the board between where we could have drafted in the 2nd round and where we ended up drafting in the third round.

We clearly had high grades on a lot of guys that went in that period.  

[kungfoodude]

46 minutes ago, hepcat said:

Stockholm syndrome is an interesting way of putting it. I just can’t shake the feeling that nothing the Panthers did this offseason is going to matter if Darnold is turning the ball over 2-3 times a game. They needed to get a plan B behind him. 

I don't even like him as a Plan A but I think by the time we got him, most of the non-draft Plan A options weren't much better.

40 minutes ago, rayzor said:

For me it's been a breathe of fresh air. Both Rhule and Fitt fit the young, progressive, and analytical model I've been dreaming about for well over a decade.

I'm all in because I'm seeing the things I was hoping I'd see. They've been unpredictable in a lot of ways which has been invigorating. 

This is a panthers team being put together and run totally different than anything we've seen before. 

I'm not expecting immediate be success. What I expect is a leadership that is constantly working to improve what they do rather than hold on like a pit bull to some ancient style of doing things.

A big thing for me is they aren't afraid to recognize and move on from mistakes and in that they instantly become better than anything we've had before.

Yeah, I am not as optimistic as that. Hopeful but not optimistic. I am just waiting and seeing. They have the mentality that I want to see, I just need to see the execution and consistency. That's what we have all been waiting forever, consistent winning.

 

7 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

He rebuilt two College programmes from the ground up. He's not a flash in the pan coach. 

If anything there's nothing 'outside the box' about our drafting under Rhule - it's the exact opposite. He's emphasizing coachable athletes. 

College isn't the NFL. That isn't a very historically successful path. Agree to disagree on the "outside the box."

[rayzor]

4 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

He rebuilt two College programmes from the ground up. He's not a flash in the pan coach. 

If anything there's nothing 'outside the box' about our drafting under Rhule - it's the exact opposite. He's emphasizing coachable athletes. 

Yep, this is what he does and he does it well. If it was just one team, you could argue a flash in the pan but it wasn't. What he does was very evident to anyone paying attention and I'm just glad we got him when we did.

[SBBlue]

22 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

I think Tepper was happy to get Christensen because he'd sat in the War Room and seen a whole host of OLineman go off the board between where we could have drafted in the 2nd round and where we ended up drafting in the third round.

We clearly had high grades on a lot of guys that went in that period.  

That too.  He is the only player we traded up to get.  I assume he was at the shelf.  In fact they are talking about drafting oline earlier before they traded down again (22:45 mark), so they took a risk trading down and almost got burned.

 

[rayzor]

8 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

College isn't the NFL. That isn't a very historically successful path. Agree to disagree on the "outside the box."

I think two of the big problems with the transition has been

1) failure to adapt to a different game (though it's still fundamentally the same game and pro level is starting to look more like the college game do that's less of an issue).

Probably a bigger problem has been 2) a disconnect with someone accustomed to dealing with young players vs. long term pro vets who, as time goes on and for lack of better wording, become entitled. Leading and motivating those two groups takes different skill sets. But look at what has happened to the roster. It's young...very young.

Essentially all of the old guard is gone. With the exception of maybe CMC, DJax and Shaq, who has been around for more than a few years? Instead of stepping into an established culture, they have the opportunity to create a new culture with young players.

And if Fitt and Rhule are as good at identifying and developing young talent as it appears or as advertised, there's no reason we wouldn't be able to constantly churn the roster and keep plenty of room on the cap, keeping only a few key players long term rather than being desperate to keep as many players as possible forever. If Rhule and his staff work better with young talent, they should be able to keep that roster filled with young talent.

[kungfoodude]

23 minutes ago, rayzor said:

I think two of the big problems with the transition has been

1) failure to adapt to a different game (though it's still fundamentally the same game and pro level is starting to look more like the college game do that's less of an issue).

Probably a bigger problem has been 2) a disconnect with someone accustomed to dealing with young players vs. long term pro vets who, as time goes on and for lack of better wording, become entitled. Leading and motivating those two groups takes different skill sets. But look at what has happened to the roster. It's young...very young.

Essentially all of the old guard is gone. With the exception of maybe CMC, DJax and Shaq, who has been around for more than a few years? Instead of stepping into an established culture, they have the opportunity to create a new culture with young players.

And if Fitt and Rhule are as good at identifying and developing young talent as it appears or as advertised, there's no reason we wouldn't be able to constantly churn the roster and keep plenty of room on the cap, keeping only a few key players long term rather than being desperate to keep as many players as possible forever. If Rhule and his staff work better with young talent, they should be able to keep that roster filled with young talent.

Yeah and I think starting with young players is more likely to work. Established vets may not have the patience for the learning curve that a lot of our coaches are going through. I definitely see the advantages. 

We just have to hope it works out in the end. That is the tough part about trying a rebuild as extensive as we have. If you fail at it, the consequences are usually lingering. 

Let's hope all that hype and advertising end up with substance and wins.

[rayzor]

25 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah and I think starting with young players is more likely to work. Established vets may not have the patience for the learning curve that a lot of our coaches are going through. I definitely see the advantages. 

We just have to hope it works out in the end. That is the tough part about trying a rebuild as extensive as we have. If you fail at it, the consequences are usually lingering. 

Let's hope all that hype and advertising end up with substance and wins.

Rhule and also Darnold have about as an ideal a situation as possible for both to succeed against historical odds.