How much of the Jets performance was really on Darnold?

[rayzor]

10 minutes ago, SizzleBuzz said:

That's entirely debatable...

he wouldn't have won a superbowl.

[SizzleBuzz]

4 hours ago, rayzor said:

...his brother used to post in here when david first got here during training camp and he was so proud of david and you could tell he was really trying to pump the guy up in every way he could, but there was too much damage done. 

Just curious how/why is it different with Sam?

How does one properly assess the level of "damage" a QB has absorbed at any point in time?

Cheers mate...

[glenwo2]

10 hours ago, SBBlue said:

I got pooed on that thread too, for saying Le'veon Bell performance contributed to the problem.

One thing for Darnold, he never attacked anyone or made excuses as far as I can tell.  He didn't play well but it wasn't all his fault....but as far as I can tell...he never said it.  

Looks like a stand up guy.

 

He also didn't throw Gase under the bus when he had every right to.    Don't think that Fitt, Rhule, and Brady did not notice that prior to them going after him.    

5 hours ago, mc52beast said:

Yes, it’s true. Tom Brady would’ve lost in a Jets uniform. That franchise has been trash for years, Sam was doomed to fail from the beginning. Let’s hope he isn’t another David Carr and can resurrect his career.

Fortunately, Sam wasn't sacked as much as Carr so there's still hope.

4 hours ago, rayzor said:

the big thing i remember is that he came in here shell-shocked. I mean the guy was absolutely pummeled for years. Sacked almost 250 times in 5 year, three of those years he led the league in sacks. i looked and in his rookie year he was sacked 76 times. the guy never had a chance. he had no help from houston at all. i don't know how mentally secure he was heading into houston, but by the time he got here he was a shell of a guy. he needed time to recover and i guess the plan was to sit behind and be mentored by an aging jake and then eventually take over. 

i think it was a good plan because carr had some real talent, but mentally he was beaten down. the problem was that jake got beat up by tommy johns and carr had to take over. they brought in vinny to take pressure off, but vinny was about ready to start receiving social security checks and enroll in medicare so he was limited in what he could do. 

carr had to take over before he was mentally able to and it showed. he got booed off the field and then got put on the injured list missing a game because of "fragile psyche." 

essentially, he wasn't mentally ready to play when he got here and he was forced into it and it was a disaster for him and the team.

the biggest difference between carr and darnold is the mental shape they were/are in when they got here. darnold got out before he was damaged goods and it seems like he's got a stronger mental foundation than carr did. 

Sam's ability to make plays on the run (and run for TDs on occasion) prevented him from being a virtual sitting duck in the pocket to get smashed like Carr was.    That's why he was sacked for about 30-35 a season(which still is awful but not "QB-Breaking" awful like Carr who had seasons of 76, 49, and 68 sacks).

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by glenwo2

[rayzor]

3 minutes ago, SizzleBuzz said:

Just curious how/why is it different with Sam?

How does one properly assess the level of "damage" a QB has absorbed at any point in time?

Cheers mate...

basic human understanding and perception. Some people are more broken than others. some people are able to handle adversity better. some people have endured more and bear the results more. any of these factors come into play here.

darnold is younger and had less time in a bad situation with less battle damage than carr.  carr was absolutely not ready mentally to start again. that much was clear from anyone around him or close to the situation. very few who know darnold or have been around darnold or who are close to the situation feel that he isn't ready to take on another starting job. there is a huge gulf between their situations and personalities and mental readiness in stepping into another starting job after their first one.

carr ≠ darnold

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, glenwo2 said:

 

Sam's ability to make plays on the run and run for TDs on occasion prevented him from being a virtual sitting duck in the pocket to get smashed like Carr was.    That's why he was sacked for only around 35 a season(which still is awful but not "QB-Breaking" awful like Carr).

 

You are aware that David Carr was a much better athlete than Darnold, right?

[rayzor]

one advantage that sam has over carr was the situation that they came into.

the coaching staff that carr walked into was not known for developing players, esp. QBs. fox didn't want anything to do with that. the OC at the time, Jeff Davidson..... The QB coach, Mike McCoy....he was a nice guy, but he wasn't a good coach at all.

meanwhile, developing talent is this coaching staff's specialty. rhule is a teacher by education and a psychologist by nature.  i just can't imagine a better situation and atmosphere to be brought into if you were trying to do a reboot on your career and were willing to put in the work.

[glenwo2]

2 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

You are aware that David Carr was a much better athlete than Darnold, right?

You are aware that he had seasons where he had 76, 49, and 68 sacks, right?

That had to badly damage his psyche to the point where while he still had the talent, his mental state as a QB was shot. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by glenwo2

[glenwo2]

To add further to my above post :

 

I forgot to add his final season in Houston where he was sacked 41 times, too.

And the only season where he wasn't sacked often was his sophomore year (15) where he only played 12 games(started 11 of them).

Add them all together and David Carr was sacked a horrific total of 249 times!! 

Meanwhile, Sam was sacked a total of 98 times.  

Carr may have been a better athlete but to get sacked that many times....damn.   It's no wonder his mental state as a QB was damaged beyond repair.

Edited May 30, 2021 by glenwo2

[SizzleBuzz]

6 hours ago, rayzor said:

6 hours ago, SizzleBuzz said:

That's entirely debatable...

he wouldn't have won a superbowl

Jets had 46 wins in 7-years before Sam....

...Bucs had 38 wins in 7-seasons before Tom.

20 and 17 in prior 3-seasons respectively.  

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by SizzleBuzz

[rayzor]

1 hour ago, SizzleBuzz said:

Jets had 46 wins in 7-years before Sam....

...Bucs had 38 wins in 7-seasons before Tom.

20 and 17 in prior 3-seasons respectively.  

as much as i hate to admit it, bucs already had some really good pieces in place. they have had some really good players on defense already and looked to be putting it together the year before. they had some good receivers and a good TE there already, and they had a decent OL...at least the interior of the line was good. plus they had a good coach and a good GM. they were only a good QB and a couple other pieces away, apparently, from making a playoff run. jameis winston had been holding that team back...and i was fine with that. 

jets have pretty much been straight garbage for a long time. they have not had a good GM or a good coach in years. it's not a good landing place for anyone.

[kungfoodude]

6 hours ago, glenwo2 said:

You are aware that he had seasons where he had 76, 49, and 68 sacks, right?

That had to badly damage his psyche to the point where while he still had the talent, his mental state as a QB was shot. 

Yeah. I actually was watching NFL football at that time. I didn't start when Sam Darnold got drafted.

Carr rushed for considerably more yardage and and same amount of TD's in his first three years than Darnold. 

Had you watched the NFL at that time, you would have seen the historically bad protection he saw. It had nothing to do with him not being able to make plays on the run. That's ridiculous.

Edited May 30, 2021 by kungfoodude

[kungfoodude]

 

28 minutes ago, rayzor said:

 

jets have pretty much been straight garbage for a long time. they have not had a good GM or a good coach in years. it's not a good landing place for anyone.

They have actually had 11 winning seasons since 1995(last in 2015 at 10-6) and 7 playoff appearances. 

Sooooooo........that statement kind of applies to us too, right?

[SizzleBuzz]

11 hours ago, rayzor said:

basic human understanding and perception.

 

In the investment banking world that's referred to as a SWAG*.

Sam is clearly a fine young man and everyone is pulling for him to do well but so far haven't seen a precedent for the bull case you are making. 

Definitively no cast-off Jets QB has ever lit it up at their next NFL shop...

...but let's widen range to entire league --- has there ever been a QB drafted top-3 who only failed with his initial team...was given up on and traded for a paltry round 2 pick...

...and then went on to have a great career at his very next stop?

I'm sure there is but I can't think of who he might be...

 

[*SWAG = Sophisticated Wild Ass Guess]

[SBBlue]

Just now, SizzleBuzz said:

Definitively no cast-off Jets QB has ever lit it up at their next NFL shop...

 

Uhhhh Robbie Anderson?