Sam Darnold's "Style of Ball"

[kungfoodude]

Just now, NanuqoftheNorth said:

I don't get the sense that Tepper is going to pull the plug on the Rhule experiment based upon Darnold's success or failure.

I think Sam either plateaus at a Teddy level (where he is now) or he will finally put it all together, justifying Rhule's gamble on him.  Darnold's likelihood of being a "bust" in the traditional sense doesn't seem likely.

All things being equal, if Rhule parts ways with Sam in a season or two, he will get at least one more chance to find his QB. Matt has demonstrated through the first season that he is extremely intelligent and capable of making chicken salad from chickenshit.  That is a skillset worth giving at least three strikes to IMHO. 

I don't think Tepper will fire him after this season, even if we didn't win a single game. I do think his seat could start getting warm if the Darnold situation results in Sam Darnold still being Sam Darnold(a bust). 

I tend to agree that he might only have one more QB chance after Darnold. That's what I am afraid of.

[pantherclaw]

14 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

You literally said a lot of successful QBs would be considered busts if Darnold is currently considered a bust. When pushed to name names there's been nothing. We're betting on long odds. That's all I'm saying.

Off the top of.my head....

Farve. Brees.  Jake delhomme. 

That's without going through the history of the NFL. 

ANYWAYS, you're take seems a lot more than long odds. 

 

[kungfoodude]

4 minutes ago, PNW_PantherMan said:

It's definitely a long shot that Sam would turn his career around and become our franchise QB or an all-star.  But, the league's story is told through long shots, in my opinion.  Tom Brady being selected in the 6th round.  The Giants beating the undefeated patriots.  Pat Mahomes being completely exceptional and beyond what anyone thought he would be.  Every season the Super Bowl winner is the exception.

Honestly, I don't expect Darnold to be that great.  But this is the NFL.  Why do we need a case study to compare Sam Darnold to?  Every situation is unique.

I don't think you need a case study, it's about playing the odds. Those long shot stories are awesome and we had one with Jake Delhomme. But, they also aren't common or frequent so you can't rely on them being successful at a high rate.

Our offseason is sort of weighted towards longshot/long odds moves, so maybe if a lot of those pan out we do have a genius front office and/or coaching staff. I would be floored to find that out, that is for sure. That's how you get the benefit of the doubt from skeptics like myself.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Off the top of.my head....

Farve. Brees.  Jake delhomme. 

That's without going through the history of the NFL. 

ANYWAYS, you're take seems a lot more than long odds. 

 

Lol. Favre? 

[LinvilleGorge]

5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't think Tepper will fire him after this season, even if we didn't win a single game. I do think his seat could start getting warm if the Darnold situation results in Sam Darnold still being Sam Darnold(a bust). 

I tend to agree that he might only have one more QB chance after Darnold. That's what I am afraid of.

I think we'll be done with scrap heap QBs if that happens. I think Tepper will be at the end of his patience for that approach. He's said that consistently winning in the NFL is about coach, GM, and QB. He's let Rhule dumpster dive at QB up until this point but I think he'll probably be told to target a guy and GO GET HIM if it fails again. Is there a prove vet available? If not, who's the guy in the draft we like and can go get? But no more mid-level vets who we think can take the next step or busts we think we can reform. Go all in on getting a stud.

[LinvilleGorge]

6 minutes ago, pantherclaw said:

Off the top of.my head....

Farve. Brees.  Jake delhomme. 

That's without going through the history of the NFL. 

ANYWAYS, you're take seems a lot more than long odds. 

 

Favre was a second round pick by a team whose coach didn't want him. They traded him for a 1st after his rookie season. Delhomme was a UDFA JAG not a guy drafted and groomed to be THE guy. Brees is probably the best comp you named but he was several levels above what Darnold has been.

The odds aren't impossible but they're definitely long. We're trying to get rich off a penny stock.

[PNW_PantherMan]

14 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The odds aren't impossible but they're definitely long. We're trying to get rich off a penny stock.

It's definitely long odds, but I don't agree with this comparison.  It implies that there is a safer, less risky option to success.  In the stock market, the safest way to win long term is to buy index funds.  There is no such thing in the NFL.  You can't buy shares of Tom Brady.  There's only 1 share of Tom Brady and he wears a Bucs uniform now.

That's kind of the point I'm getting at.  This is a long shot, but it's a long shot with calculated risk.  Championship teams are the exception.

[SBBlue]

1 hour ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Name another guy who has played as poorly as Darnold through three years who got bounced from his original team and went onto become a successful starting QB. I don't think you're going to find "a lot". People keep clinging to Tannehill while ignoring that he was FAR better in Miami than Darnold ever was in NY.

You're right, its real rare.  My guess is Rhule and Fit looked at the details of the situation (swiss cheese line, receivers with the dropsies, no run game, coaching etc), watched the tape and saw flashes and wondered if there's something there.  If a reclaim project was ever going to work, it looks like it should here.  Not to mention, if it does, they'll look like geniuses.

My bet, he's above average with a few flashes of wow....   He's no Mahommes or MVP Cam, but he's good.

 

[kungfoodude]

22 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I think we'll be done with scrap heap QBs if that happens. I think Tepper will be at the end of his patience for that approach. He's said that consistently winning in the NFL is about coach, GM, and QB. He's let Rhule dumpster dive at QB up until this point but I think he'll probably be told to target a guy and GO GET HIM if it fails again. Is there a prove vet available? If not, who's the guy in the draft we like and can go get? But no more mid-level vets who we think can take the next step or busts we think we can reform. Go all in on getting a stud.

Which, to defend Rhule somewhat we do know they pursued Stafford first, so I think the dumpster diving this offseason had more to do with their first couple of options failing(Stafford and likely Watson). 

I think this was a much more understandable dumpster dive than Teddy was. The biggest question will be passing on Fields and if Darnold is bad enough, why trade draft capital when you could have gotten a cheaper bust QB on the market. 

Hopefully this discussion is just theory and Darnold proves us wrong.

[raleigh-panther]

 Darnold is the QB to Dec 2022

No one on this board wants him to fail and no one in this board knows he will succeed 

we hope for the best , period 

however the facts are, he is plan D and we may very well be looking at another QB. 

Should that happen. Rhule needs to answer and will answer to Tepper.  
1. Failure with Newton’s handling.  
2. Failure with Teddy (who he and Brady just had to have)

3.  Failure with Stafford trade  
4. Failure with Watson (not their fault).
5. Obtaining in Darnold the worst rated qb in the NFL 
6.Passing  on Fields for Darnold 

7  getting flanked by the 49ers and being far to vocal about their own QBs needs 

that’s a whole lot of churn with the most important position on the field.  

if it works out, genius.  If it doesn’t, I hope Rhule’s contract is solid  
 

The owner will certainly remember he wanted Fields  that will be the end of the bromance with Rhule 

CBs are nice players   QBs are what make the NFL go    
 

Ps yes I know kC lost the SB and I also know both starting tackles were out and Mahomes still made plays to win that game 

I want Darnold to succeed and I’ll just fine if he is an average NfL QB  

what he can’t be is bottom third   

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by raleigh-panther

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Which, to defend Rhule somewhat we do know they pursued Stafford first, so I think the dumpster diving this offseason had more to do with their first couple of options failing(Stafford and likely Watson). 

I think this was a much more understandable dumpster dive than Teddy was. The biggest question will be passing on Fields and if Darnold is bad enough, why trade draft capital when you could have gotten a cheaper bust QB on the market. 

Hopefully this discussion is just theory and Darnold proves us wrong.

I think we were all in on Watson and then Stafford had a much better option. The Lions to their credit wanted to do right by him. We would've had to have offered considerably more than the Niners to get him. The Niners should be legit contenders with him.

[grimesgoat]

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Name another guy who has played as poorly as Darnold through three years who got bounced from his original team and went onto become a successful starting QB. I don't think you're going to find "a lot". People keep clinging to Tannehill while ignoring that he was FAR better in Miami than Darnold ever was in NY.

Seems like this has been discussed before. It’s actually much more rare for a top 5 QB to be any good at all his first 3 years, especially since they were probably drafted by a shitty team. The exceptions are Marino, Cam, Peyton, Luck, Mahomes, Brady. There really are not many qbs that stood out as franchise qbs after only 3 years. There is a steep learning curve and guys coming out of college just don’t have enough experience. Years 4-5 of his career will reveal what Sam is.

[SBBlue]

5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Which, to defend Rhule somewhat we do know they pursued Stafford first, so I think the dumpster diving this offseason had more to do with their first couple of options failing(Stafford and likely Watson). 

I think this was a much more understandable dumpster dive than Teddy was. The biggest question will be passing on Fields and if Darnold is bad enough, why trade draft capital when you could have gotten a cheaper bust QB on the market. 

Hopefully this discussion is just theory and Darnold proves us wrong.

No doubt.  Darnold was not our first choice.  

Fields is going to a playoff team, he should look good.  It going to hurt watching him excel if we don't.

On the other hand, if Darnold is throwing deep TDs and Horn is shutting down opponents, we are going to be very happy for a long time.

[Moo Daeng]

6 minutes ago, Ace420 said:

I agree. Anyone who has doubts about sam are pretty much labeled as negative posters. Its kinda funny when sam has never been a good qb. I dont understand how they think criticism of sam is unwarranted when the guy has never had a good season. 

Sure, i want sam to do good, but i dont believe that a qb that has sucked his whole career is going to magically be better all of the sudden because he is on our team now... i still think passing on a qb was a bad move, and if Fields or any of the other available qbs in the draft do better than sam, it is going to make our new coach and gm look stupid. Period. We should have drafted fields and let the qbs compete. Teams wuthout a franchise qb don't have the luxury of hoping a 3 year bad qb is the answer. You keep trying until you get it right. 

We have a talented young team and i dont want to wait until they are old and washed up by the time we finally find the answer. You keep digging and keep drafting until tou find him period. You cant win a superbowl without one. 

I label people as negative when they have to jump in to any conversation about him and repeat themselves for the 500th time turning every thread in to the same discussion we've seen for 2 months.