What we need to see from Sammy D in OTAs

[glenwo2]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, but that doesn't change the bust history. If he is an outlier it won't be his age, it will be because the Jets are that huge of a dumpster fire. 

I have heard the "just 23/24" thing plenty. He isn't the first 20 year old NFL player and he isn't even the youngest player ever drafted. There are more than one of those 19 or 20 year old rookies that didn't bust out their first three years.(Juju is one, as an example)

Like I said, after this season, it's boom or bust. Zero excuses left.

How many of them were QBs?

Edited May 24, 2021 by glenwo2

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, stbugs said:

Right, but he sure ain’t it if he looks bad in practice. We better hear good reports in camp or we’ve got a problem. I also think it helps his confidence if he realizes how good his weapons are and honestly, if Marshall is a steal, the weapons are outstanding. I’m not worried about the ghosts either. We haven’t seen him ever turtle like Teddy. It’s going to come down with whether or not he’s got the ability to toss 2020 away and continue the progression he had from 2018 to 2019. He wasn’t “bad” those years. In fact he was very comparable to Josh Allen and like Allen actually had a winning record in 2019. Allen continued his progression as the Bills continued to support him like adding Diggs and Darnold got the we’re losing for Lawrence treatment.

I really want to see how he does in camp because I think it’s a huge indicator if he’s got a shot.

Josh Allen is a tough comparison because he started out a lot like Cam, Jackson, etc. He relied on his legs a lot to carry him through his first couple of years. Darnold is a gunslinger with a little above average athleticism. 

The production wasn't too far off but they don't play the game similarly at all. 

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, glenwo2 said:

How many of them were QBs?

I don't care how many excuses are thrown out there. It doesn't change what I am saying. If he doesn't get it together after his first season here, there is zero hope of him ever being anything. It doesn't matter that he started on a dumpster fire of a franchise in NY and it doesn't matter if his next stop was another very bad franchise in our team. Eventually you just have to produce as a player. 

None of these elite QB's have an NFL career of only star studded rosters and perfect situations. Everyone has challenges in the NFL. It's on the player to make the best of those situations. Floundering in one bad scenario to the next says you are at your very best a backup QB and not capable of being a consistent NFL starter.

[ForJimmy]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Josh Allen is a tough comparison because he started out a lot like Cam, Jackson, etc. He relied on his legs a lot to carry him through his first couple of years. Darnold is a gunslinger with a little above average athleticism. 

The production wasn't too far off but they don't play the game similarly at all. 

A gunslinger with a bad coach, few weapons, and no protection is a recipe for disaster. A lot of mistakes will be made in that scenario. I know it’s not ideal for any QB, but gunslingers will just let it rip to guys who can’t make plays. Dink and dunk Teddy would have faired better IMO.

[glenwo2]

5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't care how many excuses are thrown out there. It doesn't change what I am saying. If he doesn't get it together after his first season here, there is zero hope of him ever being anything. It doesn't matter that he started on a dumpster fire of a franchise in NY and it doesn't matter if his next stop was another very bad franchise in our team. Eventually you just have to produce as a player. 

 

Yes you are correct in that if he doesn't get it together, then he'll never get it together.

But you have to be cautious in setting too high a bar for him that anything less than that "too high" a bar is viewed as a failure in your eyes while others (with a more reasonable approach) view the result (providing it works out) as a Success. 

And he will produce on this team.   He HAS TO.    There is no other choice.  

 

uhh....wait....did you just call the Panthers "another very bad franchise"?    what?

Edited May 24, 2021 by glenwo2

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, ForJimmy said:

A gunslinger with a bad coach, few weapons, and no protection is a recipe for disaster. A lot of mistakes will be made in that scenario. I know it’s not ideal for any QB, but gunslingers will just let it rip to guys who can’t make plays. Dink and dunk Teddy would have faired better IMO.

I just don't see the ceiling that others do. I don't think he is any better than Trubisky or Winston, who are also failed starters/draft picks. 

I am perfectly fine being wrong about that, because it means our biggest roster hole is filled and perhaps we have a 10+ year starter on our hands(that's when I will get excited about him only being 24). 

But, I don't see it.

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, glenwo2 said:

Yes you are correct in that if he doesn't get it together, then he'll never get it together.

But you have to be cautious in setting too high a bar for him that anything less than that "too high" a bar is viewed as a failure in your eyes while others (with a more reasonable approach) view the result (providing it works out) as a Success. 

And he will produce on this team.   He HAS TO.    There is no other choice.  

The bar is that he needs to show he is a franchise QB. Not an average NFL starter, certainly not one of the objectively worst NFL QB's(which he has established). Honestly, anything other than that just isn't acceptable. If he can't be Jimmy Garoppolo, Ryan Tannehill or Jared Goff good, he is a bust.

Acceptable results(and expectations) should be Kylar Murray/Baker Mayfield or better. If we can't be at least as good as two other highly regarded, athletic gunsligers...then he is a bust.

[pantherclaw]

4 hours ago, stbugs said:

Well, then it’s Darnold and Horn versus Fields and who we could have gotten with this year’s 6th and next year’s 2nd and 4th. In the end it’s still Darnold vs. Fields because it’s a QB league and our QB choice is what will make or break out playoff aspirations. We appear to be building a solid team outside of the QB so it really is our choice of QB that seals it.

With as much draft capital we've gained, we haven't lost anything to have our current QB. 

Move on already. 

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, glenwo2 said:

uhh....wait....did you just call the Panthers "another very bad franchise"?    what?

We are quite objectively a bad franchise. 7 winning seasons in 27 is just bad. The bulk of the franchises with that sort of track record are largely the perennial cellar dwelling franchises. 

The thing that gives we fans hope is that our highest highs have been two Super Bowl appearances. That is something the bulk of the rest of the bad franchises can't say. 

Remember, that is legitimately what Tepper, our front office and coaching staff are up against. They have to find a way to have some sustained success. Sustained success has literally never happened in Panthers history. We are the NFL's only franchise to never have had back to back winning seasons.

[glenwo2]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The bar is that he needs to show he is a franchise QB. Not an average NFL starter, certainly not one of the objectively worst NFL QB's(which he has established). Honestly, anything other than that just isn't acceptable. If he can't be Jimmy Garoppolo, Ryan Tannehill or Jared Goff good, he is a bust.

Acceptable results(and expectations) should be Kylar Murray/Baker Mayfield or better. If we can't be at least as good as two other highly regarded, athletic gunsligers...then he is a bust.

Well it's a good thing none of us make the important decisions around here.

For instance, the belief by some that Sam would be tossed to the curb after one season like Teddy was is hilarious to me.

The reason, imo, they picked up Sam's option is that they fully expect Sam to be 100% with this team that season (where he doesn't need to learn anything further from the playbook).  

This season is going to be more about getting himself familiar with the playbook and developing chemistry with CMC and company.    At least that's my opinion on it.

[ForJimmy]

8 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I just don't see the ceiling that others do. I don't think he is any better than Trubisky or Winston, who are also failed starters/draft picks. 

I am perfectly fine being wrong about that, because it means our biggest roster hole is filled and perhaps we have a 10+ year starter on our hands(that's when I will get excited about him only being 24). 

But, I don't see it.

Oh no I definitely get it. I was pushing for Fields, but since we are rolling with Darnold I’m sitting back and letting our staff do their job. I relatively confident in them and it should make for an interesting year of football. I get that the odds are against him, but the Jets were strongly considering trading their pick and rolling out Darnold with more weapons/ protection. Besides if any team can make a player look bad it’s the Jets.

[pantherclaw]

The reason to pick up Sam's option is it’s cheaper than not doing it. 

You fans that don't believe in the Sammy experiment will never accept it. 

The team believes in Sam. They have invested in him for the next 2 seasons. 

It's smart to sign his option because if he plays half as well as they expect him to, extending him after the fact would cost more. It's just that simple. 

Basic math. 

[kungfoodude]

Just now, glenwo2 said:

Well it's a good thing none of us make the important decisions around here.

For instance, the belief by some that Sam would be tossed to the curb after one season like Teddy was is hilarious to me.

The reason, imo, they picked up Sam's option is that they fully expect Sam to be 100% with this team that season (where he doesn't need to learn anything further from the playbook).  

This season is going to be more about getting himself familiar with the playbook and developing chemistry with CMC and company.    At least that's my opinion on it.

You can laugh all you want but if he puts up similar numbers to his career averages, I don't think you are gonna see him starting in 2022. Same way with winning. If he doesn't win, he will be just as gone as Teddy.

Remember last offseason when Teddy was going to be here a MINIMUM of two seasons? You saw how quickly that changed, right?

I gotta be honest, I was dug in for a long haul rebuild but a lot of the vibes the owner, front office and coaching staff have given off are that they aren't content losing. Which, I think we as fans want to see. Panthers fans have accepted coach after coach that was okay with mediocrity.

The question is, will we actually be able to build any success if we keep rinsing and repeating every offseason at QB? It took forever for Cleveland in that cycle. 

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Oh no I definitely get it. I was pushing for Fields, but since we are rolling with Darnold I’m sitting back and letting our staff do their job. I relatively confident in them and it should make for an interesting year of football. I get that the odds are against him, but the Jets were strongly considering trading their pick and rolling out Darnold with more weapons/ protection. Besides if any team can make a player look bad it’s the Jets.

I don't think that was actually strong consideration, TBQH. In a similar vein to the Mac Jones/49ers situation, I think the media was taking off with a narrative because it generated views. I think the prospect evaluation process definitely led the Jets to knowing without a doubt that they were drafting a new QB.