Understanding the personnel Moves: The Panther's Wide Zone Blocking Scheme

[Dex]

Damn, watching Tremble lay the wood gives me wood.

 

Great post man.

[Mr. Scot]

42 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

I struggled with the same concerns about our newest guards.  However, I am less concerned about Moore than Brown.   We shall see, but I LOVE Moore and hope he can get there.  And you have to run the ball in A gap too, so maybe their strengths will offset.  I wish I knew more about this Blitz.  I am just trying to piece it together and look at it all as they might be--

There's probably a whole discussion to be had about what kind of guys you want manning your offensive line.

Power running teams have tended to use massive road grader types, while teams that employ West Coast style schemes like us often depend on lighter, more agile / athletic types (the 49ers of the 80s worked well with guys like Harris Barton and Jesse Sapolu, for example).

I know one school of thought is that you go massive in the middle and more athletic on the outside, and that kind of seems to fit who we have. But we've also seen Rhule and Fitterer demonstrate a preference for athleticism in general.

Guess we'll see how it works out.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Mr. Scot

[kungfoodude]

2 hours ago, MHS831 said:

You hear a lot about fit, and recently, the effervescent Black and Blue Bubba posted a podcast by Brett Kollman and EJ Snyder, where they made some pretty good analyses that helped me understand some of the personnel moves (draft picks, free agent signings) we made.  First of all, we are running the "Wide Zone" blocking scheme, which is is form of zone blocking nor to be confused with "outside zone" scheme, as opposed to man or inside zone. 

First, it is important to understand fit.  Why we went after players we did in free agency and in the draft.  The difference between an outside zone scheme and a wide zone scheme is detailed, and the differences are rather subtle.  Basically, in the inside zone, the lane the OL creates is designed to be inside the playside Guard's hip--the outside zone goes outside the guard's hip.  An outside zone attacks an area of the defense, while the wide zone stretches the defense and relies on the back reading the blocks and making the earliest and most effective cut or burst through the hole.   I used this link with embedded videos because it is from Oklahoma State, famous for the wide zone blocking attack.  It also explains a draft pick we made (and it was NOT because Rhule's wife called) and is probably why we liked Chuba Hubbard:  

https://pistolsfiringblog.com/film-study-oklahoma-states-wide-zone-rpo/

In this Jets article, (run the wide zone scheme, but they did not have the personnel to do it) they list 6 linemen in this draft that fit that scheme. We signed Pat Elflien from the Jets, by far their best IOL in the wide scheme and a perfect fit, based on what I have seen of him as a Jet (G) and Viking (C). But the article focused on drafting players, and one of the top 6 wide zone OL mentioned was Brady Christensen, OT, BYU:

https://jetswire.usatoday.com/lists/2021-nfl-draft-offensive-linemen-new-york-jets-wide-zone-blocking-scheme/

So why draft Tommy Tremble in the third round? Yes, he will run some stuff from an hback set, but it is wrong to limit him that way.  The strong side wide zone is the easy answer to why we drafted an athletic beast of a blocker in the open field:  (Watch the strong side wide zone scheme description on this video by Alex Gibbs--very informative. Note that the most important block on the OL is arguably  the TEs)

And then there is this:

So what characteristics does the wide zone blocking OL need to be successful?

1. Communication/Intelligence.  They work as a unit, and they must know where their teammates will be.  Trust the system.  The must react on the fly and take good angles, predicting where the defender will be.

2. They need to be mobile and have good feet, balance and coordination.  Often they will have to block DBs and LBs in the open field.  I provide a video that shows Cam Erving as a guard, and although the chiefs do not run the Wide zone very much (inside zone, man 25% of the time, outside zone 75%) note in the video how well Erving moves and pursues blocks in the open field. 

In fact, David Moore is a GREAT fit for this system, and I seriously think he will make the team and start within a year.  He is short, which is less of a disadvantage for an IOL in this system but he has 34" arms, he can move, and he is a bit nasty.  He can pull, has light feet, a huge anchor if needed, and he does a great job of rolling his hips into the block in the open field. 

Finally, there has been some criticism of the reason we drafted Deonte Brown as a G if we are running the zone scheme.  However, I think that is based on his size, not his tape.  He shows that he can be a lot of things, not simply a man blocker.  If a G can pull and see the need to slip off his block to pick up a bigger threat, then he has the intelligence.  Brown is not going to lead a sweep or anything, but he is going to be able to reach and get to the second level.  I think he needs to lose 15 more lbs, but he can have a role in this offense because he can take smart angles and he has the strength to turn folks on reach and  scoop blocks, etc. 

I feel much more understanding of the Elflien and Erving signings now.  I get the Brady and Tremble picks--we should be awesome at strong side running to the left--we could not really run left last year.  I am excited about Paradis as a fit more than before.

And I think we have the RBs and QB to do this.  I think the focus on stopping the run will open things up for our secondary.  Darnold will not be forced to throw all the time and he will have a great screen game (Think about Christensen, Tremble, and Elflien leading CMC on a screen).  I get it.  I think I understand now why we did what we did.  Did we need Sewell?  Not as much as we probably needed a Slater or Christensen.  I will say that we will not be as strong in pass protection, but if you have a good screen game and stretch the field all day, and there are 4 WRs who can spank your butt on any given play---you are less likely to blitz.  Stunts are not as effective either.

I am getting pumped.

The Jets article was depressing. So many guys we willingly passed on that supposedly fit our scheme very well.

I hope all that trading down is gonna work out. 

[Khyber53]

Great post!

It's definitely a wrinkle that gives me some optimism about the immediate future and explains a bit about the immediate past. That line's gotta gel fast and get smart fast to make it work. I can only guess that Rhule has his guys now, or at least ones that fit the mold.

If it works as planned, it could be a thing of beauty.

[Moo Daeng]

17 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The Jets article was depressing. So many guys we willingly passed on that supposedly fit our scheme very well.

I hope all that trading down is gonna work out. 

Maybe the problem is making assumptions about the scheme and using a Jets fan article to gauge who fits an alleged scheme.

I

[KatsAzz]

This is one of the very best and most informative posts i have seen on the Huddle in a long time.

[OldhamA]

1 hour ago, Moo Daeng said:

Maybe the problem is making assumptions about the scheme and using a Jets fan article to gauge who fits an alleged scheme.

I

I mean they were also looking for the best players they could draft.

Maybe they thought a potential shutdown corner / potential #1 WR was better value than a guy that would just be thrown into the mix at OL.

We have A LOT of guys heading into camp on the Oline. I'm pretty certain they've got no idea how that's going to pan out, besides picking the best 5 guys and making it work. You could see any combination of players - it'll be an open competition. 

If they didn't think one of the guys we passed up before Christensen was going to nail down one of those jobs, but loved Marshall / Horn then why take them?

[OldhamA]

2 hours ago, pantherj said:

The old cut blocking technique worked wonders for making poop RBs look like superstars because it scared the defensive linemen into thinking they were about to lose their ACLs.

The system worked (and works now in San Francisco) because it moves the line of scrimmage.

You're not allowed to cut block anywhere near as much as you were allowed to back in the Portis / Davis days. If you watch any of their highlights the line of scrimmage is like a war zone - there's bodies on the ground everywhere. I don't think it's fair to call them poor RBs though, they're just system guys - decisive one cut runners. Like Foster in Houston. 

Now you move the line of scrimmage laterally and allow the RB to pick his holes based on how the D reacts. It's not about putting a hat on a hat and blowing guys off the line of scrimmage. It's about asking those Dlinemen to cover more than just the immediate ground in front of them.

Edited May 21, 2021 by OldhamA

[pantherj]

8 minutes ago, OldhamA said:

The system worked (and works now in San Francisco) because it moves the line of scrimmage.

You're not allowed to cut block anywhere near as much as you were allowed to back in the Portis / Davis days. If you watch any of their highlights the line of scrimmage is like a war zone - there's bodies on the ground everywhere. I don't think it's fair to call them poor RBs though, they're just system guys - decisive one cut runners. Like Foster in Houston. 

Now you move the line of scrimmage laterally and allow the RB to pick his holes based on how the D reacts. It's not about putting a hat on a hat and blowing guys off the line of scrimmage. It's about asking those Dlinemen to cover more than just the immediate ground in front of them.

The cut blocking became illegal on all running plays in 2016 due to the horrible injuries it caused over the years.

Chuba Hubbard doesn't have the speed to go around the defense, so we'll need this system if we're going to use him much. I worry that CMC will miss some games this season, so to have a backup plan is important. We have one now. Last season, not so much.

[OldhamA]

4 hours ago, MHS831 said:

In fact, David Moore is a GREAT fit for this system, and I seriously think he will make the team and start within a year.  He is short, which is less of a disadvantage for an IOL in this system but he has 34" arms, he can move, and he is a bit nasty.  He can pull, has light feet, a huge anchor if needed, and he does a great job of rolling his hips into the block in the open field. 

Finally, there has been some criticism of the reason we drafted Deonte Brown as a G if we are running the zone scheme.  However, I think that is based on his size, not his tape.  He shows that he can be a lot of things, not simply a man blocker.  If a G can pull and see the need to slip off his block to pick up a bigger threat, then he has the intelligence.  Brown is not going to lead a sweep or anything, but he is going to be able to reach and get to the second level.  I think he needs to lose 15 more lbs, but he can have a role in this offense because he can take smart angles and he has the strength to turn folks on reach and  scoop blocks, etc. 

I see Moore as a C in the NFL - shorter, but long arms with a good base, can get to the second level and plays with a nasty demeanor. It's not a coincidence that they put him at C in the Senior Bowl - they saw something in practice.

As for Brown - he's at 340something now. Rhule stated that maybe he's just a 340lb guy - personally I think they try to get him down to 330lb or below. I just don't think they could pass over that ability in the 6th round. You don't start 2 years at Alabama if you're not talented. If he busts because he can't keep his weight down then that's just the nature of the Draft. 

 

I do wonder how high we were on Spencer Brown - he was coached by the Dolphins so we didn't get a hands on look at him. 

[Jon Snow]

Another great post! 

I'm smelling what Rhules got cooking down in BOA.  I have a feeling the line play will be greatly improved this season.  Give them one more draft like the last, if even half of them stick, and this team will be ready to kick some serious ass. 

Of course Darnold's play could overshadow all of this one way or the other, good or bad.  I'm hoping for good myself.

[Sgt Schultz]

4 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I'm not sure that we've ever had that. IMO, the difference between good coaches and great coaches is that good coaches can field a great team when given a roster that fits well to their scheme. A great coach can tweak his schemes to fit the talent at hand and field a great team even when the roster may not fit what he'd ideally like to do.

Bum Phillips said it best.  He described both Don Shula and Bear Bryant this way.

"He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

[TheSpecialJuan]

Best post in months 

[kungfoodude]

5 hours ago, Dex said:

Damn, watching Tremble lay the wood gives me wood.

 

Great post man.