Come to Grips with Reality

[Mr. Herbert]

I dont believe the 49ers are taking Jones in anyway but do find it interesting Vegas has him as the favorite.

+125 Jones

+175 Lance

+175 Fields

[Tinamedina]

23 hours ago, Tr3ach said:

Fields' main concerns arent going to show up in scripted workouts.   I think everyone expected him to look really good in workouts.  His concerns are fast decision making and making quick reads.

 

Okay so I am so tired of the "he cant read defenses and his mental isnt good enough" excuse when the QB is black. (Yes I'm going there.) Only when the QB is black does this ever gets brought up, and all it is, is a passive aggressive way to say black QBs arent as smart as white qbs.

 

There was a time when the NFL made sure to not have black QBs because they thought black QBs arent smart enough, only good for running and being crash test dummies.

[panthers55]

11 hours ago, Waldo said:

Maybe but then they were completely wrong. I'm hoping that was more Hurney then the remainder. This is not a team that is near contention with Teddy as a QB. What was it, 0-8? That's non-playoff quality right there. 

Teddy knew Brady's system last year and looked terrible. Just not worth keeping. If that is Brady's security blanket we would have been better with him leaving this offseason.

Not saying we want Bridgewater long term unless he seriously improves which is doubtful. But he is the perfect guy to mentor a rookie or even a vet coming from a different system. Teddy didn't look terrible until defenses realized he wouldn't uncork it. He knew the system and moved the ball. We had 3 receivers with 1000 yards. He just couldn't finish drives and keep the safeties back with over the top passing. Some reality is needed here.

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, Tinamedina said:

 

Okay so I am so tired of the "he cant read defenses and his mental isnt good enough" excuse when the QB is black. (Yes I'm going there.) Only when the QB is black does this ever gets brought up, and all it is, is a passive aggressive way to say black QBs arent as smart as white qbs.

 

There was a time when the NFL made sure to not have black QBs because they thought black QBs arent smart enough, only good for running and being crash test dummies.

Stop the race-baiting. We were willing to give up the farm for Watson and he is black.  Meanwhile the knock on Darnold is he can't read defenses and makes poor decisions and he is white.  Not only is your insinuation offensive but very inaccurate. 

[Waldo]

4 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Not saying we want Bridgewater long term unless he seriously improves which is doubtful. But he is the perfect guy to mentor a rookie or even a vet coming from a different system. Teddy didn't look terrible until defenses realized he wouldn't uncork it. He knew the system and moved the ball. We had 3 receivers with 1000 yards. He just couldn't finish drives and keep the safeties back with over the top passing. Some reality is needed here.

15 TDs in 15 games he played. Link. That's terrible for a starting QB that 'knows the system' in this modern NFL with 3 1,000 yard WRs. He was also pretty bad early, by the end of week 6 he had two 0 TD and 2 Int games. Link.

He leaves the top wide open except for one throw I remember and when the field shrinks he can't get it into the endzone. His highlight is he threw for just under 250 yards a game he played, solid for a backup. If the staff goes with that again then we know exactly what we are getting and will see.

I also don't get why he would be a perfect mentor, game reps are better then a mentor and if Brady can coach we are just wasting money on Teddy. We can June cut Teddy, sign a cheap pro-backup to 'Anderson' the new guy and just play the rookie. We already proved that Teddy doesn't win many games so why not put the rookie out there...if we get one of course. 

[Catsfan69]

3 hours ago, Tinamedina said:

 

Okay so I am so tired of the "he cant read defenses and his mental isnt good enough" excuse when the QB is black. (Yes I'm going there.) Only when the QB is black does this ever gets brought up, and all it is, is a passive aggressive way to say black QBs arent as smart as white qbs.

 

There was a time when the NFL made sure to not have black QBs because they thought black QBs arent smart enough, only good for running and being crash test dummies.

Nope. Lots of guys especially those from spread option offenses and one read offenses get the same regardless of color.

[panthers55]

24 minutes ago, Waldo said:

15 TDs in 15 games he played. Link. That's terrible for a starting QB that 'knows the system' in this modern NFL with 3 1,000 yard WRs. He was also pretty bad early, by the end of week 6 he had two 0 TD and 2 Int games. Link.

He leaves the top wide open except for one throw I remember and when the field shrinks he can't get it into the endzone. His highlight is he threw for just under 250 yards a game he played, solid for a backup. If the staff goes with that again then we know exactly what we are getting and will see.

I also don't get why he would be a perfect mentor, game reps are better then a mentor and if Brady can coach we are just wasting money on Teddy. We can June cut Teddy, sign a cheap pro-backup to 'Anderson' the new guy and just play the rookie. We already proved that Teddy doesn't win many games so why not put the rookie out there...if we get one of course. 

You clearly are confused. A mentor teaches others in the classroom and in practice which is where most work is done. Game reps only are good if done correctly. There are tons of QBs with lots of game experience who still struggle because they make poor decisions and for which the game doesn't slow down. It slows down in practice not the game. The game is for demonstrating what you have learned in practice and on film. So yes many great mentors and coaches aren't the best athletes  but guys who understand the game and how to teach.

And we are not cutting Bridgewater June 1. Given 10 million of his salary is guaranteed this year cutting him would cost 20 million in dead cap. Even a June 1st resignation sonly pushes 5 million to next year. So we keep him at 22 million or cut him and waste 20 million whether it is all this year or 15 and 5 next year. Hardly a smart move. No the play here would be trade him if possible and his guaranteed money goes to the other team. Otherwise keep him and use him as a mentor. Those are your only reasonable options 

Edited March 31, 2021 by panthers55

[Waldo]

2 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

You clearly are confused. A mentor teaches others in the classroom and in practice which is where most work is done. Game reps only are good if done correctly. There are tons of QBs with lots of game experience who still struggle because they make poor decisions and for which the game doesn't slow down. It slows down in practice not the game. The game is for demonstrating what you have learned in practice and on film. So yes many great mentors and coaches aren't the best athletes  but guys who understand the game and how to teach.

And we are not cutting Bridgewater June 1. Given 10 million of his salary is guaranteed this year cutting him would cost 20 million in dead cap. Even a June 1st resignation sonly pushes 5 million to next year. So we keep him at 22 million or cut him and waste 20 million whether it is all this year or 15 and 5 next year. Hardly a smart move. No the play here would be trade him if possible and his guaranteed money goes to the other team. Otherwise keep him and use him as a mentor. Those are your only reasonable options 

Nope, reps over mentorship every day. A new QB doesn't need a big professional older brother, they need to get on the field and start to make plays. The only negative from reps are if the coaching staff puts them in a position to be Carr'ed. That would be a bad staff, we actually have good coaches now. The beginning of the year is a perfect time to have a limited playbook and get a QB up to speed.

If we are talking Teddy and smart moves, that ship sailed when we signed him. I'm not trying to be sassy either, it's all bad options in regards to Teddy and good is off the table outside of fantasies. The money that is spent is sunk and doesn't matter, it's gone. What does mater is does the staff have what they want? The new GM has zero ties to Teddy so no handcuffs there. The coaching staff sat Teddy for an XFL QB so if they need to squeeze a couple of million somewhere then they can start with Teddy. The fact we saved a June cut says we are keeping our options open. Those numbers are also incorrect. The big number in my angle is 8 million if we June cut Teddy. Sign a QB for 2 or 3 million that can show a new QB how to do the office part of the job and spend the rest on a chunk of Moore's up and coming contract would be a huge win to me. 

Now if we can't draft a QB that's where we will see how desperate we are and if the new GM can keep the crazy train on the tracks. 

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, Waldo said:

Nope, reps over mentorship every day. A new QB doesn't need a big professional older brother, they need to get on the field and start to make plays. The only negative from reps are if the coaching staff puts them in a position to be Carr'ed. That would be a bad staff, we actually have good coaches now. The beginning of the year is a perfect time to have a limited playbook and get a QB up to speed.

If we are talking Teddy and smart moves, that ship sailed when we signed him. I'm not trying to be sassy either, it's all bad options in regards to Teddy and good is off the table outside of fantasies. The money that is spent is sunk and doesn't matter, it's gone. What does mater is does the staff have what they want? The new GM has zero ties to Teddy so no handcuffs there. The coaching staff sat Teddy for an XFL QB so if they need to squeeze a couple of million somewhere then they can start with Teddy. The fact we saved a June cut says we are keeping our options open. Those numbers are also incorrect. The big number in my angle is 8 million if we June cut Teddy. Sign a QB for 2 or 3 million that can show a new QB how to do the office part of the job and spend the rest on a chunk of Moore's up and coming contract would be a huge win to me. 

Now if we can't draft a QB that's where we will see how desperate we are and if the new GM can keep the crazy train on the tracks. 

How many guys flame out because they are put into a situation as a starter on often not good teams where they flounder instead of flourish. That is because they were not ready to carry the team and needed to sit and watch and understand the game before being thrown in there. The success of some guys like Mahomes has make fans think that it is easy to come in as a rookie and play right away or after taking your drubbings they will come back the next year and be a star. Great fantasy. Reality is that for every Mahomes you have there are tons of first rounders who flame out or become backups and journeymen.  Frankly if they weren't first rounders they wouldn't have lasted as long since folks hate to be wrong on their first rounders.

And the guys we are going to get all have great physical talent but suspect ability to read defenses and go through progressions, and wouldn't have a clue how to move personnel to force the defense into undesirable matchups. All things Teddy actually does very well. It would be a great combination because they have the athleticism he lacks and he has the mental and football knowledge they lack having never played a snap in the league. It is exactly what we need. And if you played sports at a high level you know that coaches teach but the veteran guys really translate the nuances to the younger guys on the practice field where players learn the game. When Shanahan brought in Garoppollo, who was already a veteran at the time, he sat him for six months until he knew the offense before putting him as the starter. Bringing in a rookie who is the 4th or 5th best guy in the draft and starting him in this offense day 1 would be a disaster. This offense is much more evolved and precise than the one Cam came into his rookie year.  You don't just step right in unless it is adapted and simplified until things slow down and you are ready for more complexity.

Edited April 1, 2021 by panthers55

[Waldo]

21 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

How many guys flame out because they are put into a situation as a starter on often not good teams where they flounder instead of flourish. That is because they were not ready to carry the team and needed to sit and watch and understand the game before being thrown in there. The success of some guys like Mahomes has make fans think that it is easy to come in as a rookie and play right away or after taking your drubbings they will come back the next year and be a star. Great fantasy. Reality is that for every Mahomes you have there are tons of first rounders who flame out or become backups and journeymen.  Frankly if they weren't first rounders they wouldn't have lasted as long since folks hate to be wrong on their first rounders.

And the guys we are going to get all have great physical talent but suspect ability to read defenses and go through progressions, and wouldn't have a clue how to move personnel to force the defense into undesirable matchups. All things Teddy actually does very well. It would be a great combination because they have the athleticism he lacks and he has the mental and football knowledge they lack having never played a snap in the league. It is exactly what we need. And if you played sports at a high level you know that coaches teach but the veteran guys really translate the nuances to the younger guys on the practice field where players learn the game. When Shanahan brought in Garoppollo, who was already a veteran at the time, he sat him for six months until he knew the offense before putting him as the starter. Bringing in a rookie who is the 4th or 5th best guy in the draft and starting him in this offense day 1 would be a disaster. This offense is much more evolved and precise than the one Cam came into his rookie year.  You don't just step right in unless it is adapted and simplified until things slow down and you are ready for more complexity.

Sitting doesn't fix bad coaching or bad team management. It just delays the inevitable. Look at our D last year, good coaching make a huge difference and makes it worth playing the young guys even if it sucks early. Each prospect is a little different but if they are not having immense issues in camp then sitting shouldn't be the go-to move just because they are young. There are tons of 1st rounders that flame out or become backups because of terrible situations and the fact that is who they always where regardless of who picked them where.   

Once we get an actual QB, then it's way more specific and less theoretical. Garoppollo was a huge mistake conceptually and the fact he had to sit for 6 months with the niners says more about him and that mistake then the process you are supporting. R Wilson went in the 3rd round, started all 16 games his rookie year and didn't need to sit. Cam did it as the 1st pick. We won't know if they have to sit until we know they need to sit. We are perfectly fine simplifying for a young QB, last year wasn't very impressive offensively. Looked like we relied on the talent at WR to bail us out, mixed in with good old power running once CMC went down. Pretty basic really, lots of dump offs and guys open deep. I hope to see the complex side, it's just not going to happen until we have more talent at QB and on the oline.

[Tr3ach]

6 hours ago, Tinamedina said:

 

Okay so I am so tired of the "he cant read defenses and his mental isnt good enough" excuse when the QB is black. (Yes I'm going there.) Only when the QB is black does this ever gets brought up, and all it is, is a passive aggressive way to say black QBs arent as smart as white qbs.

 

There was a time when the NFL made sure to not have black QBs because they thought black QBs arent smart enough, only good for running and being crash test dummies.

That's simply not true.  Making quick decisions or reading defense has nothing to do with race.  I can remember a qb who got hammered for it a few years ago.  Josh Allen.  Another more recent one was Justin Herbert.  It is only tied to race if you make it that way.

[panthers55]

26 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Sitting doesn't fix bad coaching or bad team management. It just delays the inevitable. Look at our D last year, good coaching make a huge difference and makes it worth playing the young guys even if it sucks early. Each prospect is a little different but if they are not having immense issues in camp then sitting shouldn't be the go-to move just because they are young. There are tons of 1st rounders that flame out or become backups because of terrible situations and the fact that is who they always where regardless of who picked them where.   

Once we get an actual QB, then it's way more specific and less theoretical. Garoppollo was a huge mistake conceptually and the fact he had to sit for 6 months with the niners says more about him and that mistake then the process you are supporting. R Wilson went in the 3rd round, started all 16 games his rookie year and didn't need to sit. Cam did it as the 1st pick. We won't know if they have to sit until we know they need to sit. We are perfectly fine simplifying for a young QB, last year wasn't very impressive offensively. Looked like we relied on the talent at WR to bail us out, mixed in with good old power running once CMC went down. Pretty basic really, lots of dump offs and guys open deep. I hope to see the complex side, it's just not going to happen until we have more talent at QB and on the oline.

The defense wasn't good last year. We were good when we blitzed and pressed  and sucked when we went zone and rushed 3. It was a case of the stats looking better than the results. And it wasn't bad coaching it was a college coach learning to get better in the NFL. His 3-5-3 concept wasn't that great in the NFL. Guys like Chinn and Burns made it look better than it was 

And Garoppollo's problems are injury related not skill. Through 8 games in 2020 his record is 24-8. He took them to a Superbowl in 2019 and would be solid if he could stay healthy. And once again you use a true exception to the rule in Wilson to justify starting a rookie despite the overwhelming evidence to show it is best to give them time to learn the game. You aren't alone though many folks including NFL execs make the same mistake every year 

Edited April 1, 2021 by panthers55

[YourLastThought]

6 hours ago, Tinamedina said:

 

Okay so I am so tired of the "he cant read defenses and his mental isnt good enough" excuse when the QB is black. (Yes I'm going there.) Only when the QB is black does this ever gets brought up, and all it is, is a passive aggressive way to say black QBs arent as smart as white qbs.

 

There was a time when the NFL made sure to not have black QBs because they thought black QBs arent smart enough, only good for running and being crash test dummies.

Oh god here we go........Do you also get tired of them mentioning "unathletic white guy" for white QB's as well? I mean by all means let's be consistent here and admit these crap stereotypes exist on all levels but I'm probably bad for mentioning the latter correct? That's how this game works isn't it? Josh Allen I think was criticized for the same thing recently wasn't he? As well as a slew of other QB's but the ones we could also name don't quote fit the narrative agenda we are trying to push does it? Let's just bury our heads in the sand and pretend the other guys don't exist then huh.

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by YourLastThought

[@bonafidebanter]

On 3/30/2021 at 3:37 PM, CRA said:

I think a lot of that is bologna that gets repeated.   Lot of that is just the schemes.  If he played in Clemson's offense people would say he makes quicker decisions.   

Bucky Brooks I think has a good video addressing some of these false narratives about Fields.   There is some comical lie repeated on the internet about how some anonymous source with a team claimed he threw to his 2nd read a comical small amount of times.  as Brooks explains, you then go watch his film and you realize that is just repeated internet nonsense on social media and not true. 

This right here. It happens way too much in the draft evaluation process. This reeks of the Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder and Mitchell Trubisky drafts. Think about it. How many of these top 5 QBs are actually going to hit? How many normally do? Makes me sick.