Orlovsky on Trey Lance

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

You have to remember cumulative effect here too.

Football players' bodies don't break down just because of one hit here or there. You also have to account for the number of shots that they take over time.

A particular hit might not look bad right when you see it, but those things add up.

Well, as I have said, I went into this wanting Cam from the jump.  But when I lobbied for him I always believed he would have a short career because his body was going to be put on the line in ways you don't normally see. 

I loved the Cam era.  I still think the biggest issue was simply the bodies/talent we put around him weren't good enough.  A front office problem.  

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

You don't have to try and make him be something he's not to develop him.

You just have to try and help him be the best of what he is.

Again, I don't think Rivera was the guy to do that.

Well, my opinion, is Cam basically was that....we got the best of what he could be. 

He climbed the ladder to being the best player in the NFL.   Cam wasn't the reason we didn't win more.  The problem wasn't we didn't develop him correctly IMO.   The problem was the other players around him and our inability to build well rounded teams.   We wasted great years that we had with Cam.  

And if you "developed" Cam to be this more ideal QB IMO you risk ever having him be great.   Cam is just too unique. 

[Mr. Scot]

2 minutes ago, CRA said:

Well, my opinion, is Cam basically was that....we got the best of what he could be. 

He climbed the ladder to being the best player in the NFL.   Cam wasn't the reason we didn't win more.  The problem wasn't we didn't develop him correctly IMO.   The problem was the other players around him and our inability to build well rounded teams.   We wasted great years that we had with Cam.  

And if you "developed" Cam to be this more ideal QB IMO you risk ever having him be great.   Cam is just too unique. 

I will agree that Newton probably wouldn't have fit into something like an Andy Reid system.

But with that said, I'd still like to have seen what he could have done with better quarterback coaching.

(fix his footwork at the very least; that's not too much to ask)

Edited March 23, 2021 by Mr. Scot

[SmokinwithWilly]

23 minutes ago, CRA said:

Letting Cam be Cam also means not trying to make him fit in your box.....which in large part would have prevented Cam from having success IMO.   Cam was literally the best player in the NFL at one point.  Letting Cam be Cam worked.   Just came down could you put bodies around him that he needed. 

Plus, there is the personality aspect.   Not just the playing style aspect.  Ron let Cam be Cam there....which was also a big aspect of things.   That likely could of gone wrong for a lot of teams as well. 

Coaches IMO often get treated like QBs.  Too much credit and too much blame often.  Ron Rivera is a very solid coach.   Ron wasn't the problem.  Personnel IMO often was. 

Rivera's greatest flaw was his unwillingness or inability to adapt to anything. Teams figured Cam out as a QB, leaving him to rely on his physical abilities to succeed. And Cam was able to do it, for a while. 

But if you ask yourself, why did we have KB and Funchess, it was to give Cam big talk receivers that could catch Cam's passes that he tended to throw high or wide. But if you look at his mechanics, they never really changed from being a rookie until he got hurt. That's poor development and that's on Ron and Co. for not correcting or even adjusting to anything. 

Hurney embraced the suck and Gettleman was neutered by JR with regards to keeping family guys or I think Rivera might have been canned earlier. Cam could have been so much more with the right coach. But the way Ron coached was as much of a memory as the 85 Bears. 

[top dawg]

1 hour ago, Mr. Scot said:

Lance isn't Newton.

Sometimes I think people forget just how special an athlete Cam Newton was.

Honestly, I'm glad he isn't Newton. Cam was/is a special athlete, but I'm sure a few would say the same about Lance. That aside, for me, I'm hoping that the biggest difference is decision-making! 

[Mistuh Jones]

Thought Fields ran a 4.41?

[thefuzz]

13 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Rivera's greatest flaw was his unwillingness or inability to adapt to anything. Teams figured Cam out as a QB, leaving him to rely on his physical abilities to succeed. And Cam was able to do it, for a while. 

But if you ask yourself, why did we have KB and Funchess, it was to give Cam big talk receivers that could catch Cam's passes that he tended to throw high or wide. But if you look at his mechanics, they never really changed from being a rookie until he got hurt. That's poor development and that's on Ron and Co. for not correcting or even adjusting to anything. 

Hurney embraced the suck and Gettleman was neutered by JR with regards to keeping family guys or I think Rivera might have been canned earlier. Cam could have been so much more with the right coach. But the way Ron coached was as much of a memory as the 85 Bears. 

This is how I feel about that situation.

Cam could have been great...and been around a long time...but not the way he was allowed....and forced to play the game.

Moving on....I tend to be frustrated about this team's past too much.

[Varking]

15 minutes ago, Mistuh Jones said:

Thought Fields ran a 4.41?

He did and he wants to run a 4.39 on his pro day but it really doesn’t matter much. 

[Anybodyhome]

2 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Lance isn't Newton.

Sometimes I think people forget just how special an athlete Cam Newton was.

But if mechanics are going to be questioned, what exactly is the benchmark you're using? That's my point.

So, if Cam is such a special athlete, why aren't coaches around the globe teaching kids his mechanics? Or, if someone is a special athlete, then mechanics don't matter? Just trying to understand where the line is drawn.

I don't know Lance or Fields, but I do know that Cam's mechanics were talked about ad nauseam in this very forum.

And Dan fugging Orlovsky?

 

[CRA]

1 hour ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

Rivera's greatest flaw was his unwillingness or inability to adapt to anything. Teams figured Cam out as a QB, leaving him to rely on his physical abilities to succeed. And Cam was able to do it, for a while. 

But if you ask yourself, why did we have KB and Funchess, it was to give Cam big talk receivers that could catch Cam's passes that he tended to throw high or wide. But if you look at his mechanics, they never really changed from being a rookie until he got hurt. That's poor development and that's on Ron and Co. for not correcting or even adjusting to anything. 

Hurney embraced the suck and Gettleman was neutered by JR with regards to keeping family guys or I think Rivera might have been canned earlier. Cam could have been so much more with the right coach. But the way Ron coached was as much of a memory as the 85 Bears. 

I don't buy that.  He transcended into being the best player in football.  And when he had a clean bill of health after he climbed that mountain.....he was great.   He wasn't figured out.  His body wasn't holding up. 

KB and Funchess are examples of building poorly around Cam.   The notion Cam needed only big targets.  We put 3 TEs on the field, none of who could actually separate.  Go over the top.  Made life easy on defenses.  It is why when you got rid of KB.  Funchess' role shrank....and you inserted Ginn, Philly, etc. he became MVP.  

Cam was a streaky player.  That's what some players are.  Some are gamblers.  Some have to be robots and machines for success.  I think there is too much fixation on we didn't fix his mechanics.    To change him. You can't and shouldn't focus on fixing everyone's mechanics.  Doesn't necessarily mean the outcome is better.  You can just mess up something that worked.     

Cam wasn't the problem.  Yet he all the attention was and remains almost exclusively focused on him.   That if only we fixed this with Cam things would have been better.  I disagreed then and now with that emphasis.  We should of fixed what was around Cam.   It was much worse than Cam getting lazy with his feet. 

[panthers55]

24 minutes ago, CRA said:

I don't buy that.  He transcended into being the best player in football.  And when he had a clean bill of health after he climbed that mountain.....he was great.   He wasn't figured out.  His body wasn't holding up. 

KB and Funchess are examples of building poorly around Cam.   The notion Cam needed only big targets.  We put 3 TEs on the field, none of who could actually separate.  Go over the top.  Made life easy on defenses.  It is why when you got rid of KB.  Funchess' role shrank....and you inserted Ginn, Philly, etc. he became MVP.  

Cam was a streaky player.  That's what some players are.  Some are gamblers.  Some have to be robots and machines for success.  I think there is too much fixation on we didn't fix his mechanics.    To change him. You can't and shouldn't focus on fixing everyone's mechanics.  Doesn't necessarily mean the outcome is better.  You can just mess up something that worked.     

Cam wasn't the problem.  Yet he all the attention was and remains almost exclusively focused on him.   That if only we fixed this with Cam things would have been better.  I disagreed then and now with that emphasis.  We should of fixed what was around Cam.   It was much worse than Cam getting lazy with his feet. 

Cam was never the greatest player in the league. He was the greatest dual threat QB for a few years but he had serious flaws he never fixed. He couldn't make all the throws and never had touch on the ball. He never successfully anticipated receivers and threw them open.  He was decent over the middle on crossing routes but not on out routes and corner routes. He tried to throw to open receivers not throw to open up receivers.  He bailed too often under pressure and didn't step up. When he tried to evade pressure he turned his back to his receivers and bailed to his left so often it was predictable. He would throw a strike between 3 defenders on 1 play and throw it 6 ft over the receivers head on the next. He had no consistency which is a big reason the offense bogged down so much. 

This doesn't include anything about his reading defenses or calling audibles which he struggled with often because he took so long to even get up to the line.  

No I loved Cam and have several jerseys of his. But he had some serious issues which he could have worked much harder on but for whatever reason he didn't. Sure he often didn't have great talent around him but he was just as responsible for some of the issues as well. 

Actually Cams failure to improve his mechanics and learn defenses is one reason I am not a great Lance fan. I don't know Lance will put in the work to improve. Many athletic QBs rely on their athletics to make up for their deficits in other areas.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, panthers55 said:

Cam was never the greatest player in the league. He was the greatest dual threat QB for a few years but he had serious flaws he never fixed. He couldn't make all the throws and never had touch on the ball. He never successfully anticipated receivers and threw them open.  He was decent over the middle on crossing routes but not on out routes and corner routes. He tried to throw to open receivers not throw to open up receivers.  He bailed too often under pressure and didn't step up. When he tried to evade pressure he turned his back to his receivers and bailed to his left so often it was predictable. He would throw a strike between 3 defenders on 1 play and throw it 6 ft over the receivers head on the next. He had no consistency which is a big reason the offense bogged down so much. 

This doesn't include anything about his reading defenses or calling audibles which he struggled with often because he took so long to even get up to the line.  

No I loved Cam and have several jerseys of his. But he had some serious issues which he could have worked much harder on but for whatever reason he didn't. Sure he often didn't have great talent around him but he was just as responsible for some of the issues as well. 

Actually Cams failure to improve his mechanics and learn defenses is one reason I am not a great Lance fan. I don't know Lance will put in the work to improve. Many athletic QBs rely on their athletics to make up for their deficits in other areas.

Well, I'd argue in 2015 he was the best player in the NFL.  He won MVP.  And his peers voted him as the #1 player.   I mean if that isn't an argument for it.....what is? 

and I am not a fan of Lance.  He is a very very poor man's version of Cam.   And that doesn't work.   Cam worked because he was the most dominant runner in NFL history at the position.    

[panthers55]

3 hours ago, CRA said:

Well, I'd argue in 2015 he was the best player in the NFL.  He won MVP.  And his peers voted him as the #1 player.   I mean if that isn't an argument for it.....what is? 

and I am not a fan of Lance.  He is a very very poor man's version of Cam.   And that doesn't work.   Cam worked because he was the most dominant runner in NFL history at the position.    

He had a great year in 2015. No question. I was very disappointed it was once and done. Most times QBs get MVP but that doesn't mean he was the best player. But I would say he made his case that year and I could go along with that. Still like his career he struggled with consistency from year to year and after the injury to. His shoulder he was never the same.

[Verge]

That as a problem is a little overstated.