June Jones jumps on the Mac Jones train

[panthers55]

1 minute ago, WOW!! said:

55 I don't know what planet you're on right now but you can't be serious right?? 

You're way to old to not know the difference in physical strength and muscle and the arm strength talked about in throwing a football or baseball (flexibility, snap, wrist tension) stuff that is god giving... The Rock 6'5 280lb is a big dude but he ain't throwing a ball with the same velocity or  as far as  6'1 Russell Wilson...

Example.. Greg Maddox work ethic is unquestionably..  But he couldn't develop a consistent 90 per hour fastball.. While Cece Sabathia, David Wells and Barthola Colon rarely look at a gym and could hit 90+ effortlessly..

Do you really think if Chad Peingthon, Matt Linerd, Or the rest of a long list of Successful college QB with avg. Arm strength could just workout and increase their arm strength they wouldn't??  WIth millions of dollars and ample opportunities on the line.. really??

And again this inaccurate thing you're hoping on has been debunked right in front of your face... 

Josh Allen in 1 season up his Accuracy by 6 to 8 points.. Just by scheme change and adding better talent around him... This Accuracy thing you think is a talent that can't be fixed quickly is being fixed quickly every year. .

Just what I said.  Ball velocity is impacted by technique and arm strength. And with improved technique and more arm strength you can improve your ability to throw harder. Here is an article discussing how to help young pitchers gain velocity. And none of them say give up because it is god given

And your analogies are wrong. Maddox never tried to throw a 90 mph fastball. He was all about ball placement and varying his speed and angle to get folks looking or swinging out of the strike zone.  I am sure if he focused on throwing faster he could have. After all he threw in the mid 80s.  Ball velocity is not the most important part of being a pitcher just like arm strength is not that important in the NFL. As for why guys in the NFL don't improve their skills, then tell me why Cam struggled his whole career with accuracy and decision making. He had the arm strength, according to you it is easy to become more accurate and improve your ability to speed up your decision making. He surely had great work effort, so what was the problem???

Obviously genetics play a part as torque or arm velocity is driven by a number of factors like body mass, length of your arms and legs but so much more is technique. Can you improve your ball velocity? Of course.

Here are some articles. 

 

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/1257/4-exercises-to-build-quarterback-arm-strength

https://www.stack.com/a/how-to-throw-harder. 

https://www.stack.com/a/the-childhood-drill-that-helped-pat-mahomes-build-superhuman-arm-strength#:~:text=Skills %2F%2F Baseball-,The Childhood Drill That Helped Pat Mahomes Build Superhuman Arm,shreds the laws of physics.

Gee Mahomes discusses that his ability to throw a long way wasn't god given it was developed through exercise since he was 5. 

Seems you could learn something from the old guys.

[panthers55]

24 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Eh, average or below average is debatable. I have certainly seen a few label his arm strength as below average. By below average, I don't think anyone is saying he has "bad" arm strength. Simply less than the average NFL QB.

Arm strength is something that doesn't really seem to go up after a certain point, although you can improve it. It's a lot easier to improve accuracy because that is typically a mechanical issue rather than a natural ability. 

He has good anticipation and touch on his deep throws but he definitely isn't out there throwing lasers. 

You are right throwing velocity doesn't go up for many nfl QBs but not because you can't improve it but rather it isn't a major focus for most QBs. Maybe because coaching staffs don't think that is where QBs should spend the bulk of their time and energy.

 

[kungfoodude]

12 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

You are right throwing velocity doesn't go up for many nfl QBs but not because you can't improve it but rather it isn't a major focus for most QBs. Maybe because coaching staffs don't think that is where QBs should spend the bulk of their time and energy.

 

No, it's because that is somewhat fixed at the point of making it to the NFL. Having a strong arm isn't a product of simply "bulking up." It's a combination of a lot of factors(throwing motion, muscle strength, core strength, mechanics, leg strength, flexibility, throwing motion, etc, etc.). It's not just one thing. It isn't that you cannot get stronger but there is a certain point where you are going to max out your physical abilities and for the most part almost all the NFL guys are at or near the maximum of their arm strength abilities because that is something they have been working on and perfecting for YEARS. 

The bulk of a professional QB's time and energy is spent getting game edges. Film study, knowing the offense, knowing the defenses, etc. For younger guys you can certainly make improvements on basics(throwing motion, footwork, etc). Even some of the older guys continually perfect or work on that as they advance their careers. 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by kungfoodude

[WOW!!]

10 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Just what I said.  Ball velocity is impacted by technique and arm strength. And with improved technique and more arm strength you can improve your ability to throw harder. Here is an article discussing how to help young pitchers gain velocity. And none of them say give up because it is god given

And your analogies are wrong. Maddox never tried to throw a 90 mph fastball. He was all about ball placement and varying his speed and angle to get folks looking or swinging out of the strike zone.  I am sure if he focused on throwing faster he could have. After all he threw in the mid 80s.  Ball velocity is not the most important part of being a pitcher just like arm strength is not that important in the NFL. As for why guys in the NFL don't improve their skills, then tell me why Cam struggled his whole career with accuracy and decision making. He had the arm strength, according to you it is easy to become more accurate and improve your ability to speed up your decision making. He surely had great work effort, so what was the problem???

Obviously genetics play a part as torque or arm velocity is driven by a number of factors like body mass, length of your arms and legs but so much more is technique. Can you improve your ball velocity? Of course.

Here are some articles. 

 

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/1257/4-exercises-to-build-quarterback-arm-strength

https://www.stack.com/a/how-to-throw-harder. 

https://www.stack.com/a/the-childhood-drill-that-helped-pat-mahomes-build-superhuman-arm-strength#:~:text=Skills %2F%2F Baseball-,The Childhood Drill That Helped Pat Mahomes Build Superhuman Arm,shreds the laws of physics.

Gee Mahomes discusses that his ability to throw a long way wasn't god given it was developed through exercise since he was 5. 

Seems you could learn something from the old guys.

So you bring up article of some mythical method to increase velocity and arm strength and can't name one person it worked for??

You seriously don't think Greg Maddox wouldn't have added a 90 mile per hour fast ball to his repertoire??

You seriously don't think if this was actually a true method of throwing longer with more velocity that QBS like Chad Peingthon wouldn't have done it to increase their job security and career earning??

Your whole excuse is these guys don't think it's that important???

Come on bro.. stop..

[WOW!!]

5 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

No, it's because that is somewhat fixed at the point of making it to the NFL. Having a strong arm isn't a product of simply "bulking up." It's a combination of a lot of factors(throwing motion, muscle strength, core strength, mechanics, leg strength, flexibility, throwing motion, etc, etc.). It's not just one thing. It isn't that you cannot get stronger but there is a certain point where you are going to max out your physical abilities and for the most part almost all the NFL guys are at or near the maximum of their arm strength abilities because that is something they have been working on and perfecting for YEARS. 

The bulk of a professional QB's time and energy is spent getting game edges. Film study, knowing the offense, knowing the defenses, etc. For younger guys you can certainly make improvements on basics(throwing motion, footwork, etc). Even some of the older guys continually perfect or work on that as they advance their careers. 

 

I really need to know a example of a player who constantly increased his arm strength and velocity in the pros.. Instead of just going to a team that had a system to work around that.. 

All this and we're still not talking about improving his athleticism so we can have a QB who can get out the pocket and make a play with his legs.. Like most QBS need to be able to do in this new era of football...

[panthers55]

31 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

No, it's because that is somewhat fixed at the point of making it to the NFL. Having a strong arm isn't a product of simply "bulking up." It's a combination of a lot of factors(throwing motion, muscle strength, core strength, mechanics, leg strength, flexibility, throwing motion, etc, etc.). It's not just one thing. It isn't that you cannot get stronger but there is a certain point where you are going to max out your physical abilities and for the most part almost all the NFL guys are at or near the maximum of their arm strength abilities because that is something they have been working on and perfecting for YEARS. 

The bulk of a professional QB's time and energy is spent getting game edges. Film study, knowing the offense, knowing the defenses, etc. For younger guys you can certainly make improvements on basics(throwing motion, footwork, etc). Even some of the older guys continually perfect or work on that as they advance their careers. 

 

I would agree that many QBs do max out after college but the question is whether they could get more velocity or not. Obviously if you throw hard already you don't need to but how about guys who don't have strong arms like Bridgewater. He looks like a bean pole and really needs to put on some serious muscle. Will it turn him into a strong passer? Unlikely but could he improve significantly? I think he could be better if he had a stronger base and more lower body strength.  Given that Jones can throw 35 yards in the air and drop a dime he might think he is fine. I think he needs to work on his velocity. 

[panthers55]

39 minutes ago, WOW!! said:

So you bring up article of some mythical method to increase velocity and arm strength and can't name one person it worked for??

You seriously don't think Greg Maddox wouldn't have added a 90 mile per hour fast ball to his repertoire??

You seriously don't think if this was actually a true method of throwing longer with more velocity that QBS like Chad Peingthon wouldn't have done it to increase their job security and career earning??

Your whole excuse is these guys don't think it's that important???

Come on bro.. stop..

So I send you an article quoting Mahomes saying that he owes his superstrong arm to a baseball drill he has practiced since he was 5 and that isn't evidence that you can gain strength and improve your velocity through exercise and physical training?  Nowhere did he talk about god given talent but hard work practice and repetition.  Where is  the evidence to back up your supposition it is God given and not amenable to change. Then we at least have something to discuss. So far it is your opinion

[recceice]

23 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

So I send you an article quoting Mahomes saying that he owes his superstrong arm to a baseball drill he has practiced since he was 5 and that isn't evidence that you can gain strength and improve your velocity through exercise and physical training?  Nowhere did he talk about god given talent but hard work practice and repetition.  Where is  the evidence to back up your supposition it is God given and not amenable to change. Then we at least have something to discuss. So far it is your opinion

I’m so glad that mahomes is nice enough to give kids hope that with hard work and special training ppl can become Him... Even thoe he isn’t particularly built are muscular... Hulk hogan use to tell kids to pray and take their vitamins  and we could become him... lol

Name me a player that came out of college and improved their arm strength and velocity ??

[PootieNunu]

2 minutes ago, recceice said:

I’m so glad that mahomes is nice enough to give kids hope that with hard work and special training ppl can become Him... Even thoe he isn’t particularly built are muscular... Hulk hogan use to tell kids to pray and take their vitamins  and we could become him... lol

Name me a player that came out of college and improved their arm strength and velocity ??

It does not happen. This is why the story about guys lying about their age to impress baseball scouts came out. A 16 year old throwing 80mph is impressive because he has room to grow. A 18 year old throwing 80mph is much less impressive because he is about maxed out. 

Mac Jones is 22, his arm is what it is. 

[kungfoodude]

43 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

So I send you an article quoting Mahomes saying that he owes his superstrong arm to a baseball drill he has practiced since he was 5 and that isn't evidence that you can gain strength and improve your velocity through exercise and physical training?  Nowhere did he talk about god given talent but hard work practice and repetition.  Where is  the evidence to back up your supposition it is God given and not amenable to change. Then we at least have something to discuss. So far it is your opinion

That kind of proves my point. It is something you have already built at the point you are a professional.

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, WOW!! said:

I really need to know a example of a player who constantly increased his arm strength and velocity in the pros.. Instead of just going to a team that had a system to work around that.. 

All this and we're still not talking about improving his athleticism so we can have a QB who can get out the pocket and make a play with his legs.. Like most QBS need to be able to do in this new era of football...

The improvements are likely to be fairly minimal. Almost all of that physical development will have already happened.

[WOW!!]

9 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The improvements are likely to be fairly minimal. Almost all of that physical development will have already happened.

Exactly.. His article pretty much says he started at 5 years old..  Not at 22...

If I started Shalion training at 5 I'd be the killer monk right now... But it didn't happened ... 

[panthers55]

25 minutes ago, recceice said:

I’m so glad that mahomes is nice enough to give kids hope that with hard work and special training ppl can become Him... Even thoe he isn’t particularly built are muscular... Hulk hogan use to tell kids to pray and take their vitamins  and we could become him... lol

Name me a player that came out of college and improved their arm strength and velocity ??

Is that a stat that the nfl keeps. There are many quarterbacks who have increased their deep passing accuracy with experience in the nfl. There are QBs who have had a long carreer and have kept their deep ball intact although they have declining arm strength. Brady, Rothlisburger There are guys who have had surgery and had to built their velocity from essentially zero. Brees.

Arm strength is one factor in ball velocity but it isn't the biggest one. And specific exercises can surely improve arm strength. Why can't the same thing that works with rehab help a guy without an injury ?

 

 

[WOW!!]

1 hour ago, panthers55 said:

Is that a stat that the nfl keeps. There are many quarterbacks who have increased their deep passing accuracy with experience in the nfl. There are QBs who have had a long carreer and have kept their deep ball intact although they have declining arm strength. Brady, Rothlisburger There are guys who have had surgery and had to built their velocity from essentially zero. Brees.

Arm strength is one factor in ball velocity but it isn't the biggest one. And specific exercises can surely improve arm strength. Why can't the same thing that works with rehab help a guy without an injury ?

 

 

Is this your thing now building back velocity and arm strength or like we asked you add significant velocity and arm strength after coming into the league?? Keep moving the goal post....

Your example are Brady who has never had  consistent velocity and great deep ball arm talent.. Big Ben who had a cannon coming into the league and Brees who in my opinion had a above avg. Arm at Purdue and lost a little bit of his deep ball  with his shoulder injury but kept great velocity on his short and intermediate passes and red zone throws thru out his career..  

The problem with your examples are you talking about guys who were rehabbing what they already had.. Not guys who never had it trying to develop it...

Give me a example of a Matt Linerd who came into the league with a perceived lack of arm talent and it got stronger and better??

Edited March 17, 2021 by WOW!!