Suppose CMC is part of the deal for Watson

[BurnNChinn]

6 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

Voth pretty much shot down the idea of us trading McCaffrey.

Voth don’t know David Tepper

[MechaZain]

18 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

He isn't some unicorn player. He is the same thing Ladainian Tomlinson, Marshall Faulk or any of these other high caliber dual threat feature backs were. That doesn't change that he is a HOF talent, however.

The thing that you are failing to see is that RB's don't win games based on being great, especially in the modern NFL. It isn't a requirement to have an elite or HOF caliber RB to win a Super Bowl. The post you are responding to is absolutely correct. There is a reason why most of these recent Super Bowl champions don't have large sums of money tied up at RB. What you do largely see in those teams is them having elite or HOF caliber QB's in the overwhelming majority of those games. That isn't an accident.

"He not special, just another hall of fame dual threat RB" is a nonsensical take IMO. I also think he's a more natural receiver than either and could play it full time if he had to, but that's beside the point.

I'm not arguing about the value of the RB position in the modern NFL. I take issue with everyone acting like it was another crazy overspend on Hurney's part. You can argue about whether it's justified on the field but the market is what it is. He locked in the top RB in the league for just a little more than the going rate.

[kungfoodude]

16 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

That isn't true either. He didn't compare that well to true slot or wide receivers largely due to limited opportunities. The majority of the time his passes were behind the line of scrimmage and there he dominated. He had done whatever asked  and had still been used as a primary RB. That doesn't mean he isnt good in the slot given how elusive he is in open space. He hasn't really played much in this system. Let's see how 2021 goes.

I mean, you can gyrate all you want but the stats were what they were. 

The "he can be a slot WR" crowd is truly perplexing. If he can transition to being a slot WR(which he most likely cannot), how does that make him more valuable? I can get a much more effective slot WR for far less money. Frankly, if I have $16 mil/year average to replace him with a RB and a slot WR over the next five years, I can definitely get his level of production from two players for less money.

He's being paid for the thing that he does...which is being an elite RB. Same reason Kamara got a pile of money(also another guy that could easily generate 1000/1000 seasons if he ever had the workload CMC does). Same reason Dalvin Cook got a pile of money. 

The argument against paying CMC has never, EVER been about who he is as a player. It's about what RB is as a position and it's relative value in the modern NFL. 

[mrcompletely11]

2 minutes ago, MechaZain said:

"He not special, just another hall of fame dual threat RB" is a nonsensical take IMO. I also think he's a more natural receiver than either and could play it full time if he had to, but that's beside the point.

I'm not arguing about the value of the RB position in the modern NFL. I take issue with everyone acting like it was another crazy overspend on Hurney's part. You can argue about whether it's justified on the field but the market is what it is. He locked in the top RB in the league for just a little more than the going rate.

He had 2 years left on his deal.  It was incredibly stupid and unnecessary to extend him when they did

[mrcompletely11]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The argument against paying CMC has never, EVER been about who he is as a player. It's about what RB is as a position and it's relative value in the modern NFL. 

and timing..........

Edited February 21, 2021 by mrcompletely11

[BurnNChinn]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

Right

Here's the thing. Any time he wants to, Bill Voth can walk up to Samir Suleiman and say "Hey man, what would happen to the cap if we traded / cut this player?"

I can pretty much guarantee that Suleiman's answer is not going to be "Let me go look that up on the internet."

Feel free to write a hundred more paragraphs trying to explain how your opinion as a guy who looks up stuff on the internet is more informed than that of someone who's actually part of the organization. Just be advised ahead of time that you've already lost my interest.

Lmao I’m sure Voth can walk right up to Samir and ask him that. Voth is just a reporter he isn’t in their building. You crack me up man!

[BurnNChinn]

26 minutes ago, AU-panther said:

It’s pretty simple math.  Nobody is saying it wouldn't be expensive, I’m just saying it’s feasible.

Actually I don't think Voth said it was impossible you are just interpreting it that way. 
 

 

Yeah that’s what Mr. Scot always does gives everyone the Debbie downer response. Best not to talk to him.

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, MechaZain said:

"He not special, just another hall of fame dual threat RB" is a nonsensical take IMO. I also think he's a more natural receiver than either and could play it full time if he had to, but that's beside the point.

I'm not arguing about the value of the RB position in the modern NFL. I take issue with everyone acting like it was another crazy overspend on Hurney's part. You can argue about whether it's justified on the field but the market is what it is. He locked in the top RB in the league for just a little more than the going rate.

It isn't a nonsensical take. The list of HOF RB's with Super Bowl rings isn't large in the past 25 years. I think it includes 5-6 players.

It was a crazy overspend. The market was SET by us, that is a classic Hurney move. The other big recent deals came AFTER the CMC contract. I'm not saying CMC isn't worth $16 mil, I'm saying NO NFL RB is currently worth that. Ask all those teams that have been paying top 5 RB money over the past 5-7 years. 

It's not what smart, winning franchises do. It isn't a coincidence that we haven't been a smart nor winning franchise.

[MechaZain]

1 minute ago, mrcompletely11 said:

He had 2 years left on his deal.  It was incredibly stupid and unnecessary to extend him when they did

Easy to say with hindsight. He was looking inhumanely durable at the time and if that continued we would have had to pay more or someone else would have at the end of his rookie deal.

4 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

It isn't a nonsensical take. The list of HOF RB's with Super Bowl rings isn't large in the past 25 years. I think it includes 5-6 players.

It was a crazy overspend. The market was SET by us, that is a classic Hurney move. The other big recent deals came AFTER the CMC contract. I'm not saying CMC isn't worth $16 mil, I'm saying NO NFL RB is currently worth that. Ask all those teams that have been paying top 5 RB money over the past 5-7 years. 

It's not what smart, winning franchises do. It isn't a coincidence that we haven't been a smart nor winning franchise.

Dallas set the market with Zeke months before CMC's deal.

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, MechaZain said:

Easy to say with hindsight. He was looking inhumanely durable at the time and if that continued we would have had to pay more or someone else would have at the end of his rookie deal.

Dallas set the market with Zeke months before CMC's deal.

The market is fluid but we were the team that "set" the current market, as Kamara and Cook's deals followed in the next few months. I don't expect we will see a new highwater mark for a bit after the cap drop. Drake and Aaron Jones are the only real threats this offseason and I don't see record deals being signed in either case. Then you have Chubb, Barkley and Ronald Jones in 2022. It's possible it happens that year but I wouldn't make a substantial bet on it. 

You never know, we aren't the only extremely stupid front office in the NFL, that is for certain. 

[mrcompletely11]

14 minutes ago, MechaZain said:

Easy to say with hindsight. He was looking inhumanely durable at the time and if that continued we would have had to pay more or someone else would have at the end of his rookie deal.

Dallas set the market with Zeke months before CMC's deal.

There is no hindsight.  He had 2 years left on his rookie deal.  It was unnecessary. 

[MechaZain]

54 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

The market is fluid but we were the team that "set" the current market, as Kamara and Cook's deals followed in the next few months. I don't expect we will see a new highwater mark for a bit after the cap drop. Drake and Aaron Jones are the only real threats this offseason and I don't see record deals being signed in either case. Then you have Chubb, Barkley and Ronald Jones in 2022. It's possible it happens that year but I wouldn't make a substantial bet on it. 

You never know, we aren't the only extremely stupid front office in the NFL, that is for certain. 

The market was $15m/yr for the top RB in the league at the time. Hurney had a guy that was even better, and managed to only pay an extra $1m/yr more for him. That's good negotiation on both parts.

I totally get you. The debate over whether the position is overvalued in general is completely valid, but relative to his peers it was good deal and arguably a bargain on Hurney's part. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by MechaZain

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

I mean, you can gyrate all you want but the stats were what they were. 

The "he can be a slot WR" crowd is truly perplexing. If he can transition to being a slot WR(which he most likely cannot), how does that make him more valuable? I can get a much more effective slot WR for far less money. Frankly, if I have $16 mil/year average to replace him with a RB and a slot WR over the next five years, I can definitely get his level of production from two players for less money.

He's being paid for the thing that he does...which is being an elite RB. Same reason Kamara got a pile of money(also another guy that could easily generate 1000/1000 seasons if he ever had the workload CMC does). Same reason Dalvin Cook got a pile of money. 

The argument against paying CMC has never, EVER been about who he is as a player. It's about what RB is as a position and it's relative value in the modern NFL. 

That is the point with stats. They are numbers plain and simple. The analysis is key and what gives numbers context. And our system as it was run last year doesn't focus on the running back as simply a running back but someone who can block, run and catch passes which is why McCaffrey is so valuable.  It isn't looking simply at a position but how that position is used by that team thus defining the value of that player to that team. That is why as valuable as Davis was last year he was a partial replacement for CMC who can do everything Davis can do and much more. 

[Mr. Scot]

1 hour ago, BurnNChinn said:

Lmao I’m sure Voth can walk right up to Samir and ask him that. Voth is just a reporter he isn’t in their building. You crack me up man!

Wait... Do you genuinely not know that Bill Voth is employed by the Panthers?

I swear, we've reached a whole new level of dumb in this thread