Power Shift

[Mr. Scot]

5 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

I definitely understand wanting to avoid certain organizations. The Mannings and Lucks in particular were in unique situations to have insight on franchise organizations that most prospects just don't have. I mean, if you were coming out of a top flight business school and one of the hottest prospects on the market, would you rather go work for an Apple or Tesla type company or a dinosaur like Kodak that has utterly failed to evolve and stay relevant? I don't blame anyone for trying to use whatever leverage they have. There will come a time when you'll get leveraged, you can bet your bottom dollar on that.

I don't blame anyone for making the best of their situation, but some of the suggestions people have are just ridiculous.

You want to let a player pick a coach? Okay. Obviously they're more likely to pick someone from their side of the ball, which probably irks the guys on the other side of the ball especially if that side gets neglected. Plus what happens if the player starts declining? Is the coach going to be loyal to him when he shouldn't?

Letting a player pick a GM is even crazier for the same reasons. Throw in the question of what happens when that quarterback or player retires? Now do you get a new coach and a new GM picked by your next quarterback?

I get that people want good players to play here but good grief!

[BrianS]

3 minutes ago, Waldo said:

Rookie contracts are not very long, especially outside the first. I think the payday is fine for most positions but QB is one where you can get RG3ed or Carred in a poorly run franchises.

I just value good play at QB for the NFL over a crazy franchise's right to waste more talent at a position where there just isn't enough good players in total in the league.

I don't think you can drag Carr into that argument, he went to an expansion team.  Those teams are always bad.  Carr was on a rookie contract as well.  Sucks what happened to him, but there is really no evidence that he ever would have been good.  His NFL completion percentage is right at the level he established in college.  He was drafted where he was based on ONE great season in college.

RG3 had priors with injuries in college.  Torn ACL while at Baylor.  Multiple injuries prior to the one that really ended him in the NFL.  I think the guy was just injury prone, it happens.

I certainly value good QB play, clearly the NFL does too.  If you really wanted to argue for poorly run franchises wasting QB talent, you should probably look at the Lions / Stafford.  Even that doesn't really hold up very well.  Stafford had a chance to get out after 2015, he signed.  Had another chance after 2017.  Signed again. 

Players need to take responsibility for themselves.  If you don't see your organization taking the right steps, DON'T SIGN THE CONTRACT.  If you truly value winning over money, SHOW IT.  The GOAT QB did exactly that for years in New England and helped them build an absolute monster.  He took that attitude to Tampa, and won another one.

[Waldo]

17 minutes ago, BrianS said:

I don't think you can drag Carr into that argument, he went to an expansion team.  Those teams are always bad.  Carr was on a rookie contract as well.  Sucks what happened to him, but there is really no evidence that he ever would have been good.  His NFL completion percentage is right at the level he established in college.  He was drafted where he was based on ONE great season in college.

RG3 had priors with injuries in college.  Torn ACL while at Baylor.  Multiple injuries prior to the one that really ended him in the NFL.  I think the guy was just injury prone, it happens.

I certainly value good QB play, clearly the NFL does too.  If you really wanted to argue for poorly run franchises wasting QB talent, you should probably look at the Lions / Stafford.  Even that doesn't really hold up very well.  Stafford had a chance to get out after 2015, he signed.  Had another chance after 2017.  Signed again. 

Players need to take responsibility for themselves.  If you don't see your organization taking the right steps, DON'T SIGN THE CONTRACT.  If you truly value winning over money, SHOW IT.  The GOAT QB did exactly that for years in New England and helped them build an absolute monster.  He took that attitude to Tampa, and won another one.

With Carr it being an expansion team is enough to justify possibly passing in my mind. As you said they are always bad, in this case they never built that dude an Oline.  Looks like a good example of when a player might not want that to happen. If anything, that was under the old pay scale and he got some ungodly amount right? Now a player would have a lot more to lose.

RG3 did have issue coming out, maybe a good time to see who wants to draft you and what they want to do with you? They allowed that kid to run himself into oblivion due to bad coaching under stress to keep his job and after they watched Cam be a rookie freak they thought an injured kid could do the same with completely different body types? If I was as fragile, I sure as hell would want to find a route that lets me earn longer. A HC doing anything to keep his job over my career? Nope. 

Just examples of why it didn't work and why a player might pass, especially with a nerfed rookie contract. Again, I would in some cases. Stafford is a great example. Makes me wonder if the money was enough. I just like to win and not work with and under idiots.

I completely agree about the players taking responsibility but after the first year dynamics can change fast and not always for the better. I think it is more complicated that a yes/no answer. Lots of gray. If the player at the time of the contract doesn't see the organization doing wrong then don't fault them for wanting change when the organization takes a nose dive or does awful things. It's why I don't feel sorry for Teddy and really don't care what he thinks, he took the money and it was obvious he was going to be the same guy on a bad team which puts him in a tougher spot. Oh well.

[kungfoodude]

2 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

It's no different than the real world. A small percentage of players have this type of leverage. This idea that "players" as a whole are suddenly gaining tremendous leverage is pipe dream.

The NFLPA is the weakest union in major US professional sports. 

[PootieNunu]

1 hour ago, BrianS said:

I don't think you can drag Carr into that argument, he went to an expansion team.  Those teams are always bad.  Carr was on a rookie contract as well.  Sucks what happened to him, but there is really no evidence that he ever would have been good.  His NFL completion percentage is right at the level he established in college.  He was drafted where he was based on ONE great season in college.

RG3 had priors with injuries in college.  Torn ACL while at Baylor.  Multiple injuries prior to the one that really ended him in the NFL.  I think the guy was just injury prone, it happens.

I certainly value good QB play, clearly the NFL does too.  If you really wanted to argue for poorly run franchises wasting QB talent, you should probably look at the Lions / Stafford.  Even that doesn't really hold up very well.  Stafford had a chance to get out after 2015, he signed.  Had another chance after 2017.  Signed again. 

Players need to take responsibility for themselves.  If you don't see your organization taking the right steps, DON'T SIGN THE CONTRACT.  If you truly value winning over money, SHOW IT.  The GOAT QB did exactly that for years in New England and helped them build an absolute monster.  He took that attitude to Tampa, and won another one.

We need to do this. We need the next Pat Mahomes to say they will only play for the panthers and they will only charge us 20-25 mil a season.

[Ocpanthertew714]

3 hours ago, Mr. Scot said:

I don't blame anyone for making the best of their situation, but some of the suggestions people have are just ridiculous.

You want to let a player pick a coach? Okay. Obviously they're more likely to pick someone from their side of the ball, which probably irks the guys on the other side of the ball especially if that side gets neglected. Plus what happens if the player starts declining? Is the coach going to be loyal to him when he shouldn't?

Letting a player pick a GM is even crazier for the same reasons. Throw in the question of what happens when that quarterback or player retires? Now do you get a new coach and a new GM picked by your next quarterback?

I get that people want good players to play here but good grief!

A bit of slippery slope argument here, but remember Deshaun Watson wanted input on decisions.  This of course does not mean he makes the actual pick.  Could've easily been something simple as  "we need a person that can shift culture for the better".  If you're franchise player wants to have input, then I believe they should have input.

[mav1234]

Very few players have this kind of leverage in the NBA and even fewer in the NFL. That teams are so small in the NBA and any one player can have so much more of an impact, it gives each individual player more relative value. The NFL is much more a team game.

We haven't seen how Watson will play out yet, so I'm hesitant to declare this some major shift. There have always been holdouts and player movements due to dissatisfaction.  

Frankly the Texans could use this as an opportunity to fleece the Jets or Dolphins and see if Caserio can't do what they hired him for. Which I think they will do if they can't get Watson enthusiastic about the team again. 

[Mr. Scot]

27 minutes ago, Ocpanthertew714 said:

A bit of slippery slope argument here, but remember Deshaun Watson wanted input on decisions.  This of course does not mean he makes the actual pick.  Could've easily been something simple as  "we need a person that can shift culture for the better".  If you're franchise player wants to have input, then I believe they should have input.

That's not actually what happened, but it gets remembered that way a lot.

Watson didn't ask to be included on the GM and head coach decisions. McNair offered to include him. Then when the time came, he didn't do it.

I think making the offer in the first place was dumb, but if you're going to make the offer and then not follow through on it, that's a whole other level of stupid.

[kungfoodude]

Just now, Mr. Scot said:

That's not actually what happened, but it gets remembered that way a lot.

Watson didn't ask to be included on the GM and head coach decisions. McNair offered to include him. Then when the time came, he didn't do it.

I think making the offer in the first place was dumb, but if you're going to make the offer and then not follow through on it, that's a whole other level of stupid.

Watson actually took the input of his teammates to the owner, as well. They were all resoundingly ignored. Hell, McNair even ignored the guys he hired to help him selected candidates. 

At the end of the day, it's easy to see why he just flat out gave up on the Texans. Most of their decision making has been atrocious and that isn't a new thing. 

[mav1234]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Scot said:

That's not actually what happened, but it gets remembered that way a lot.

Watson didn't ask to be included on the GM and head coach decisions. McNair offered to include him. Then when the time came, he didn't do it.

I think making the offer in the first place was dumb, but if you're going to make the offer and then not follow through on it, that's a whole other level of stupid.

McNair also ignored the search group for GM, if I recall. Heh.

[Mr. Scot]

9 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Watson actually took the input of his teammates to the owner, as well. They were all resoundingly ignored. Hell, McNair even ignored the guys he hired to help him selected candidates. 

 

8 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

McNair also ignored the search group for GM, if I recall. Heh.

Well, ya know...

Edited February 12, 2021 by Mr. Scot

[top dawg]

From what I read, Wilson only wants some input. That's not too much to ask considering that QBs generally know who's worth a damn and who is not!

[Mr. Herbert]

Farted earlier, then I pissed. Power shift? What say you huddle?

[SizzleBuzz]

On 2/12/2021 at 9:17 PM, Ocpanthertew714 said:

A bit of slippery slope argument here, but remember Deshaun Watson wanted input on decisions.   If you're franchise player wants to have input, then I believe they should have input.

Deshaun had input.  To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.

https://thespun.com/nfl/afc-south/houston-texans/houston-texans-owner-had-telling-meeting-with-deshaun-watson